HARVARD COLLEGE LIBRARY
GIFT OF THE
GOVERNMENT OF THE UNITED STATES
us Doc 2.791
Committee on Uof-Afflerlcaa activities HotLse 88th CoBgresB
COHTEHTS
1. Comnninist eustivities in the Buff€LLo, N,Y», %^^ area
2. Comsniziist activities in the Minneapolis, Minn.,
area ^c^/ 5
3. Defection of a Bossian seaman (Testimony of Vladislaw Stepanovich Tarasov) ,. > y
4. Hearings relating to H.R.352, H.E.1617, H.H.5368, H.E.8320, H.E.8757, H.R.10036. H-R.10037, ^- H.R.10077, and H.R.11718, providing for ^^^^ creation of a Freedom Commission and Freedom Academy Part 1
5. H w M N N Part 2
6. U.S. Communist Party assistance to foreign 'Hc^^ Commonist governments (Testimony of Maud
Bass ell)
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE BUFFALO, N.Y., AREA
HARVARD COLLZGc Li3?'..;y ~"^ '
DEPOSITED By THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMcNT
OEC 28 1964
HEARINGS
BEFORE THE
COMMITTEE ON UN-AMERICAN ACTIVITIES HOUSE OE REPRESENTATIVES
EIGHTY-EIGHTH CONGKESS
SECOND SESSION
APRIL 29 AND 30, 1964 INCLUDING INDEX
Printed for the use of the Committee on Un-American Activities
U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE
3fr-414 WASHINGTON : 1964
For sale by the Superintendent of Documents, U.S. Government Printing Office Washington, D.C., 20402 - Price 40 cents
-^^-^
COMMITTEE ON UN-AMERICAN ACTIVITIES United States House of Repre8entati\^s EDWIN E. WILLIS, Louisiana, Chairman WILLIAM M. TUCK, Virginia AUGUST E. JOHANSEN, Michigan
JOE R. POOL, Texas DONALD C. BRUCE, Indiana
RICHARD H. ICHORD, Missouri HENRY C. SCHADEBERG, Wisconsin
GEORGE F. SENNER, Jr., Arizona JOHN M. ASHBROOK, Ohio
Francis J. McNamara, Director Prank S. Tavennbr, Jr., General Counsel Alfred M. Nittlb, Counsel William Hitz, Counsel
n
CONTENTS
Pag«
Synopsis 1517
April 29, 1964: Testimony of—
Andrew J. Berecz 1531
Afternoon session:
Andrew J. Berecz (resumed) 1554
Paul Sporn 1563
Joseph C. Scioli... 1602
Edward A. Wolkenstein 1605
Evening session:
Seymour Rudner 1610
Helen Schwartz 1614
Walter J. Zvaleko 1621
Tobias L. Schwartz 1627
April 30, 1964: Testimony of—
Gertrude Alexander 1630
Richard H. Alexander 1635
Gloria Massa 1637
Max Berman 1641
Miroslaw B. Zelman 1643
Joseph Pranis 1647
Emanuel Fried t650
Tobias L. Schwartz (resumed) 1654
Richard H. Alexander (resumed) 1661
Index i
in
Public Law 601, 79th Congress
The legislation under which the House Committee on Un-American Activities operates is Public Law 601, 79th Congress [1946] ; 60 Stat. 812, which provides :
Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, * * *
PART 2— RULES OF THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
RXJLE X SEC. 121. STANDING COMMITTEES
17. Committee on Un-American Activities, to consist of nine Members.
Rule XI
POWEES AND DUTIES OF COMMITTEES
(q) (1) Committee on Un-American Activities.
(A) Un-American activities.
(2) The Committee on Un-American Activities, as a wliole or by subcommit- tee, is autliorized to malie from time to time investigations of (i) the extent, character, and objects of un-American propaganda activities in the United States, (ii) the diffusion within the United States of subversive and un-American propa- ganda that is instigated from foreign countries or of a domestic origin and attacks the principle of the form of govermnent as guaranteed by our Constitution, and (iii) all other questions in relation thereto that would aid Congress in any neces- sary remedial legislation.
ITie Committee on Un-American Activities shall report to the House (or to the Clerk of the House if the House is not in session) the results of any such investi- gation, together with such recommendations as it deems advisable.
For the purpose of any such investigation, the Committee on Un-American Activities, or any subcommittee thereof, is authorized to sit and act at such times and places within the United States, whether or not the House is sitting, has recessed, or has adjourned, to hold such hearings, to require the attendance of such witnesses and the production of such books, papers, and documents, and to take such testimony, as it deems necessary. Subpenas may be issued under the signature of the chairman of the committee or any subcommittee, or by any member designated by any such chairman, and may be served by any person designated by any such chairman or member.
Rule XII
LEGISLATIVE OVERSIGHT BY STANDING COMMITTEES
Sec. 136. To assist the Congress in appraising the administration of the laws and in developing such amendments or related legislation as it may deem neces- sary, each standing committee of the Senate and the House of Representatives shall exercise continuous watchfulness of the execution by the administrative agencies concerned of any laws, the subject matter of which is within the juris- diction of such committee ; and, for that purpose, shall study all pertinent reports and data submitted to the Congress by the agencies in the executive branch of the Government.
IV
RULES ADOPTED BY THE 88TH CONGRESS
House Resolution 5, January 9, 1963
• **«**•
Rule X
STANDING COMMITTEES
1. There shall be elected by the House, at the commencement of each Congress, *•***♦♦
(r) Committee on Un-American Activities, to consist of nine Members,
Rule XI
POWEKS AND DUTIES OF COMMITTEES
18. Committee on Un-American Activities.
(a) Un-American activities.
(b) The Committee on Un-American Activities, as a whole or by subcommittee, is authorized to make from time to time investigations of (1) the extent, char- acter, and objects of un-American propaganda activities in the United States, (2) the diffusion within the United States of subversive and un-American prop- aganda that is instigated from foreign countries or of a domestic origin and attacks the principle of the form of government as guaranteed by our Constitu- tion, and (3) all other questions in relation thereto that would aid Congress in any necessary remedial legislation.
The Committee on Un-American Activities shall report to the House (or to the Clerk of the House if the House is not in session) the results of any such investi- gation, together with such recommendations as it deems advisable.
For the purpose of any such investigation, the Committee on Un-American Activities, or any subcommittee thereof, is authorized to sit and act at such times and places within the United States, whether or not the House is sitting, has recessed, or has adjourned, to hold such hearings, to require the attendance of such witnesses and the production of such books, papers, and documents, and to take such testimony, as it deems necessary. Subpenas may be issued under the signature of the chairman of the committee or any subcommittee, or by any member designated by any such chairman, and may be served by any i>erson designated by any such chairman or member.
*******
27. To assist the House in appraising the administration of the laws and in developing such amendments or related legislation as it may deem necessary, each standing committee of the House shall exercise continuous watchfulness of the execution by the administrative agencies concerned of any laws, the subject matter of which is within the jurisdiction of such committee; and, for that purpose, shall study all pertinent reports and data submitted to the House by the agencies in the executive branch of the Government.
SYNOPSIS
On April 29 and 30, 1964, a subcommittee of the Committee on Un- American Activities held public hearings in Buffalo, N.Y., in com- pliance with a resolution adopted by the full committee on March 4 of the same year. The hearings concerned the structure, organiza- tion, strategy, tactics, and major objectives of the Commimist Party and other Communist organizations in the Buffalo area. Their purpose was to assist the committee and the Congress in considering legislation designed to protect the national security.
Members of the subcommittee present for the Buffalo hearings in- cluded Eepresentatives Joe R. Pool, of Texas; August E. Johansen, of Michigan ; Richard H. Ichord, of Missouri ; and John M. Ashbrook, of Ohio.
Mr. Pool, acting as chairman in the absence of Mr. Willis, pointed out that the committee had held hearings in Buffalo in 1957, but that significant changes in Communist Party organization and activities had taken place since that time and committee investigation revealed that two new Communist organizations, the Workers World Party and the Progressive Labor Movement, had come into being in the Buffalo area since 1957.
The Workers World group, he said, had been founded by former members of the Socialist Workers Party (SWP) in Buffalo who had left the SWP in February 1959 because they believed the old-line Trot- skyist organization was not sufficiently revolutionary in its outlook.
The Progressive Labor Movement had grown out of a faction within the orthodox Communist Party which, defying the main party's posi- tion, sided with Peking in the dispute between the Chinese Communists and Moscow. Its members also disagreed with the policy adopted by the National Committee of the CPUSA on the action to be taken follow- ing the Supreme Court decision of 1961 upholding the registration provisions of the Internal Security Act. This policy was to reduce the national leadership of the Communist Party to three and ignore the registration order.
The dissident faction wanted to dissolve the Communist Party and re-form it under a new name. They felt this would obviate the need for the party to register under the Internal Security Act of 1950.
Expelled from the Communist Party in 1961 for refusing to toe its line, Mortimer Scheer, a leader of the faction, and his supporters organized in Buffalo the nucleus of a new Communist group, the Pro- gressive Labor Movement, which now has its headquarters in New York City.
The first witness was Mr. Andrew Berecz, who had served as an undercover operative for the Federal Bureau of Investigation from 1942 until 1962, reporting on Coimnunist activities in the Buffalo area.
In compliance with Rule XI, sec. 26 (m) of the House, Mr. Berecz' testimony had first been taken in executive session, and all persons
1517
1518 COMMUlSriST ACTIYITIES en the BUFFALO, N.Y., AREA
identified by him as Communists whose present addresses could be determined had been so notified. They had also been informed that, if they so desired, they could appear before the committee in execu- tive session prior to the holding of the public hearings and that the committee would then not only receive their testimony but would also consider any requests made by them to subpena additional witnesses in their behalf. None of the witnesses summoned for the Buffalo hearings, and none of the other persons in the area identified as Com- munists by Mr. Berecz, took advantage of this opportunity.
Mr. Berecz was born in Hungary on February 28, 1914, immigrated to the United States in 1929, settled in the Buffalo area, and became a naturalized citizen in 1936.
Because of the insurance benefits offered by it, Mr. Berecz joined the International Workers Order (TWO) in late 1936 or early 1937. He testified that the organization operated under the title "International Workers Order Center" in the Buffalo area and was divided into five nationality groups. He was elected financial secretary of the Hun- garian Section in 1939 and held that position until the IWO was dis- solved by the State of New York in 1953. For a few years in the late 1930's and early 1940's Mr. Berecz was also chairman of the entire IWO Center. It was during this period that he first discovered that the organization made financial contributions to the Communist Party.
It was in 1942, Mr. Berecz recalled, that a committee at the IWO Center decided to contribute $300 to each of the nationality papers and $300 to the Daily Worker. The donation to the party paper was obtained by Frank Herron, and Mr. Berecz testified he had partici- pated in its authorization, but stated that he was not aware at that time of the true nature of the publication.
Within a month after the donation was made to the Daily Worker, Svea Katz and Leonard Costa appeared at the Center and "did not ask" but "demanded" $600 on behalf of the Communist Party. The committee voted to give them the money, but Mr. Berecz, as chairman of the club, refused to sign the check. A general membership meeting was called at which Mr. Berecz announced that he never was, and would never become, a Communist. For this he was removed as chairman of the club. He was, however, permitted to retain his posi- tion as financial secretary of the Hungarian Section.
The following day Mr. Berecz received a visit from three FBI agents. He agreed to report to them on Communist activities at the Center, and later to join the party if the opportunity developed and report on its activities in the Buffalo area.
This was the beginning of an assignment in the service of our Nation which was to last for 20 years.
From 1942 until 1946 he reported to the Bureau on Communist activities at the Center. In 1946 he was able to increase the scope of his infoi-mation when he accepted an invitation from Sam Coleman, a Communist Party organizer, and John Touralchuk to join the party.
At that time, Mr. Berecz was employed at the bonding plant of the American Radiator and Standard Sanitary Corporation. The party assigned him to its industrial club at that plant.
Mr. Berecz identified at least six members of the Communist Party who were assigned to this club before its dissolution in the 1950's when the party instituted new security measures. Under these measures
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE BUFFALO, N.Y., AREA 1519
the party organized community clubs with a membership of not less than four, nor more than eight. Mr. Berecz was then assigned to the Tonawanda Club. His last assigmnent in the Communist Party was in a nationality club which, the witness testified, was organized by the Erie County branch of the party in late 1961 to create a nationality culture and background group in order to gain new members.
The Conunmiist Party's effort to colonize Buffalo industry became apparent to Mr. Berecz shortly after 1950, when many party members from New York City moved into the Buffalo area. He testified that the colonizers were well-educated individuals, capable of assuming much better positions than the "hard labor" jobs they sought in the steel mills and shops. One of the colonizers to invade the Buffalo area at that time was Mortimer Scheer. Mr. Berecz also identified as Communist Party colonizers in the Buffalo area: Sy Rudner, Alex- ander Salmin, Sid Ingerman, Edward Wolkenstein, Marty Zelman, Milton Rosen, Walter Zvaleko, and Paul Sporn.
Organizers for the Communist Party known to the witness during his membership in the party included Norman Ross, Sam Coleman, Johnny Noto, Russell DePasquale, Joseph Green, Milton Rosen, and Mortimer Scheer.
Mr. Berecz testified that manipulation and exploitation of American youth have been a major effort of the Communist Party. In the recent past Mortimer Scheer and another Buffalo party leader, Anthony Massa, were assigned to handle youth work in the Buffalo area, and party members were encouraged to penetrate non-Communist youth organizations, seeking carefully but gradually to indoctrinate the young people with Marxist-Leninist ideas.
Other targets of the Communist Party include "different organiza- tions like the peace movement, fair housing, racial matters; they tried to get into all these organizations. They claimed to help, but their idea was to get in there and then advocate communistic ideas," Mr. Berecz stated.
He testified that a committee on nuclear testing handled Commu- nist Party activity in that field. Gertrude and Richard Alexander and Ann and Abe Copperman were assigned to this committee and were engaged in passing out leaflets demanding an end to nuclear test- ing at the very time Russia exploded a 50-megaton bomb. Disturbed by this action, they asked Anthony Massa for an explanation. He in- formed them that the answer would have to come from the party's New York headquarters. Some weeks later, Mr. Massa informed the Buf- falo Communists that "Khrushchev said that the free nations were against him and that they were doing it in secret and that is why he had to test the 50-megaton bomb."
Gertrude Alexander was also assigned to work in the Women Strike for Peace and the Women's International League for Peace and Freedom. Other party members asigned to work in these organi- zations included Bea Berman, Rose Touralchuk, Mrs. Dorothy Zel- man, and the senior Mrs. Zelman (Mrs. Maria Zelman), according to Mr. Berecz.
On June 6, 1961, the Supreme Court upheld the order of the Sub- versive Activities Control Board which had found the Communist Party of the United States to be a "Communist-action organization"
1520 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE BUFFALO, N.Y., AREA
within the meaning of the Internal Security Act of 1950 and had there- fore ordered it to register as such with tlie Attorney General.
The CPUSA refused to register. Its national committee decided to reduce the national party leadership to three individuals and simply ignore the registration order.
Mortimer Scheer and others who wanted a more militant and aggres- sive Communist Party opposed this course of action. They proposed instead to dissolve the CPUSA and reorganize it under a newname. They felt that, if this were done, the party would not be required to register under the Internal Security Act of 1950.
In October 1961 a meeting was held in the home of John McKenzie to resolve the issue. Mr. Berecz, who was present at the meeting, testified that it was attended by Ben Davis and Lou Weinstock, Com- munist Party officials from New York City, and by Paul Sporn, Gloria and Anthony Massa, Gertrude and Richard Alexander, Ed- ward Wolkenstein, Walter and Vera Zvaleko, Marty and Dorothy Zelman, Bea and Max Berman, Sy Rudner, Hattie Lumpkin, and Mortimer Scheer of the Erie County branch of the party.
A resolution from Communist Party headquarters in New York was presented to the meeting by Ben Davis. It called for Mortimer Scheer, Edward Wolkenstein, and Walter Zvaleko to "get in line with the national committee's policy" or face expulsion.
The trio refused to obey the ultimatum and were immediately ex- pelled from the party by Ben Davis. Mr. Berecz testified that Davis also "invited" certain members from the Buffalo area who spoke in defense of Mortimer Scheer to "go with" Scheer.
A four-member secretariat was then appointed by Ben Davis to run the party in the Buffalo area. Hattie Lumpkin refused the ap- pointment, leaving Tony Massa, Marty Zelman, and Sy Rudner to head the Erie County Communist Party. In July 1962 Tony Massa, having been accused of being "antagonistic" toward some of the mem- bers, was removed from the secretariat by William Patterson.
Mr. Berecz also testified briefly about a Communist Party meet- ing, held in November 1961 in the home of Everett Jones, at which Louis Weinstock presented a resume of the party's position on the registration issue. He announced that the CPUSA would be under the leadership of Gus Hall, Ben Davis, and Elizabeth Flynn.
In addition to Mr. Berecz, who supplied the committee with much valuable information, 14 other persons were called as witnesses. Com- munist Party activity on the part of each of these witnesses had been the subject of public and/or executive testimony by Mr. Berecz.
Paul Sporn, the second witness to be heard is an instructor at the State University of New York at Buffalo.
He was identified by Mr. Berecz as having been a Communist Party colonizer and, more recently, the education and literature director of the Erie County branch of the party. At the Communist Party meeting in October 1961, Mr. Berecz recalled, Paul Sporn spoke out in defense of Mortimer Scheer, who was facing expulsion from the party. Mr. Ben Davis then "invited" Mr. Sporn and others who sup- ported the Buffalo leader to leave the Communist Party.
Appearing under oath, Mr. Sporn acknowledged that he had graduated cum laude from New York University in 1951 and for a short time thereafter had been employed by the Eighth Street Book Sliop in New York City.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES EST THE BUFFALO, N.Y., AREA 1521
The witness was confronted with copies of applications for em- ployment submitted by him to four Buffalo industries, dating from 1953 through 1955. In each instance, Mr. Sporn had sought positions in a laboring capacity. Admitting to only a high school education, he had concealed the fact that he was a college graduate.
Mr. Sporn acknowledged having executed the applications and having worked for the firms in the capacities indicated. When asked if, in his application to the Twin Coach Company, he had signed the statement, "I am not a member of the Communist Party or any orga- nization recommending the overthrow of the United States Govern- ment," Mr. Sporn invoked the fifth amendment and other reasons in refusing to answer. He also refused on the same basis to answer questions regarding Communist Party membership at the time he sought employment with the Chevrolet Division of General Motors in 1955.
The witness admitted that he had been employed as an instructor at the University of Buffalo since 1959 and noted that the name of the university had recently been changed to "State University of New York at Buffalo."
He was then shown a certificate which set forth certain qualifica- tions for employment at the university and regulations to be followed by all State university employees under New York State law. The certificate was dated February 6, 1964, and signed "Paul Sporn."
In this document Mr. Sporn certified that he had followed the instructions as set forth. He further certified that he was not a member of the Communist Party and, if he ever had been, he had communicated the fact to the president of the university.
In his appearance before the committee, however, Mr. Sporn in- voked the fifth amendment and declined to answer all questions re- garding this document on the groimds that to do so might tend to incriminate him. He also refused to either affirm or deny testimony concerning him given under oath by Mr. Berecz and invoked the fifth amendment, among other reasons, in refusing to answer questions pertaining to membership in the Progressive Labor Movement.
Witness Joseph Scioli is a labor leader in the Buffalo area. He is an international representative for the Communist-dominated Inter- national Union of Mine, Mill and Smelter Workers and has been em- ployed in that capacity since 1944.
In testimony before this committee in 1957, Charles Regan and Joseph Chatley identified Mr. Scioli as a member of the Communist Party.
In response to committee questions, Mr. Scioli admitted that he engages in lobbying activity in behalf of Mine-Mill in the State of New York and in Washington, D.C., but he said that, to the best of his recollection, he had never signed a non- Communist affidavit as required mider the Taft-Hartley law.
Mr. Scioli declined to answer questions pertaining to his past or present membership in the Communist Party on the grounds that it might tend to incriminate him. Invoking the same constitutional pro- tection, he refused to answer questions pertaining to meetings of labor leaders in the Buffalo area at which Andrew Berecz was present and would neither affirm nor deny meeting with other Communists in the area to discuss the party's colonization plans.
1522 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE BUFFALO, N.Y., AREA
Edward A. Wolkenstein was the final witness in the afternoon ses- sion on April 29. Wolkenstein had been a witness before the com- mittee during its 1957 hearings in Buffalo. At that time, he testified that he was not then a member of the Communist Party, but invoked the fifth amendment and refused to answer questions pertaining to past party membership.
Mr. Wolkenstein had been a Communist Party colonizer and, with Mortimer Scheer and Walter Zvaleko, had been expelled from the party by Ben Davis at the party meeting in October 1961, according to Mr.Berecz. At that meeting Wolkenstein had been the first to speak after Davis had delivered the party's ultimatum to the Erie County branch. Berecz recalled that :
Mr. Wolkenstein said quite a few things at that time. He stated tliat he was born in the Communist Party and he would like to die in it, but Mr. Ben Davis had other ideas. He said he might have been born in it, but he wasn't going to die in it unless he fell in line with the national committee.
Confronted with this testimony, Mr. Wolkenstein invoked con- stitutional protection, including the fifth amendment, and refused to testify about liis expulsion from the Conmiunist Party ; member- ship in the Progressive Labor Movement; or whether he knew Morti- mer Scheer, Gertrude Alexander, and Walter Zvaleko to be members of the Progressive Labor Movement.
Seymour Rudner, Helen Schwartz, and Walter Zvaleko, appear- ing under subpena, testified at an evening session of the hearings on April 29. Tobias Schwartz was also called to testify at this session, but was so disruptive — yelling and denouncing the committee at the top of his voice — that he had to be forcibly removed from the hearing room and his testimony postponed until the following day.
Seymour (Sy) Rudner is employed by Health Research, Inc., a division of the Roswell Park Memorial Institute in Buffalo, which is en^'iired in research under contract with the National Institutes of Hea. li of tlie U.S. Department of Health, Education, and Welfare.
Ainliew Berecz stated under oath that Rudner had been a Com- munist Party colonizer in the Buffalo area; that he had once been emp]oy<.'d at t]\e American Radiator and Standard Sanitary Corpora- tion; and that he had been a member of the same industrial club of the party to which Mr. Berecz was assigned. More recently, Mr. Berecz testified, Rudner had been elevated to one of the top posts in the Erie Comity branch of the Communist Party — he was appointed to the four-member secretariat selected by Ben Davis to direct party activity in the BulFalo area following the expulsion of Mortimer Scheer.
Appearing under oath, Mr. Rudner invoked the fifth amendment and declined to answer questions regarding his educational and em- ployment background. He also invoked tlie fifth amendment when asked if his employer was subsidized by Federal funds, if he knew Berecz, if he was a member of the Communist Party, if he had been appointed to the secretariat by Ben Davis in 1961 and by Betty Gannett in 1962, if he was familiar with the professional group of the Communist Party, and if the party and the Progressive Labor Movement cooperated in matters involving Cuba and Red Cliina.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE BUFFALO, N.Y., AREA 1523
Helen Schwartz, wife of Tobias Schwartz, had been identified as a member of the Coinmmiist Party by Andrew Berecz.
At a meeting of the party's Tonawanda Club — to which Mr. Berecz was assigned following the dissolution of the industrial club — Mrs. Schwartz was told, according to Berecz, that she was to transfer from the Tonawanda to the Professional Club. She protested the transfer and stated that she wanted to remain in the Tonawanda Club; that her husband was in the Professional Club and she did not want to be in the same club with him.
Mrs. Schwartz was questioned about the accuracy of the informa- tion supplied under oath by Mr. Berecz. Invoking tlie fifth amend- ment and other reasons, she refused either to affirm or deny acquaint- ance with Mr. Berecz or her attendance at the meeting of the Tona- wanda Club which was held at the home of Joe Pranis on the evening of January 15, 1960. She also invoked the same reasons when asked if she was then a member of the Progressive Labor Movement.
Following Mrs. Schwartz the committee received the testimony of Walter J. Zvaleko.
Andrew Berecz had identified Walter Zvaleko as a member of the Communist Party and had testified that Zvaleko's open support of Mortimer Scheer and refusal to align himself with the national com- mittee in its dispute with the Buffalo leader had resulted in his ex- pulsion from the party with Scheer and Wolkenstein in October 1961.
Mr. Zvaleko invoked the fifth amendment and other reasons in de- clining to answer questions pertaining to past or present membership in the Communist Party. He also refused to testify about his expul- sion from the party or his acquaintance with Mr. Berecz.
Wlien counsel asked if he was then a member of the Progressive Labor Movement, Mr. Zvaleko declared :
The Progressive Labor Movement is a new socialist move- ment that is looking to solve the problems of the American people, trying to free the Negro people from the bondage that they face in the South.
The witness was then directed to answer the question. He invoked the fifth amendment and other reasons for refusing to answer.
On April 30 the subcommittee received tho testimony of Gertrude and Richard Alexander, Gloria Massa, Max Berman, Miroslaw (Marty) Zelman, Joseph Pranis, Emanuel Freid, and Tobias Schwartz.
Mr. and Mrs. Alexander had been identified by Andrew Berecz as Communist Party members assigned to the party's committee on nuclear testing. Mrs. Alexander had also been assigi^ed by the party to work in "VVomen Strike for Peace and the Women's International League for Peace and Freedom. Both Richard and Gen rude Alex- ander had supported the position taken by Mortimer Scht'oi at the time of his expulsion from the party. Like Paul S})u!n, tloy, too, were "invited" by Ben Davis to leave the party after Mrs. A \c. <ander questioned Davis' authority to expel Mortimer Scheer at the v ' 'tober 1961 meeting.
Although the testimony of the Alexanders was heard separately, each of them invoked constitutional protection, including the fifth amendment, and refused either to affirm or deny testimony concerning them given by Mr. Berecz; their expulsion from the Communist
1524 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE BUFFALO, N.Y., AREA
Party; the formation of, or their membership in, the Progressive Labor Movement.
The next witness, Gloria Massa, had been identified by Andrew Ber- ecz as the Commmiist Party member who presided at the meeting of the Tonawanda Club held in the home of Joseph Pranis on Janu- ary 15, 1960. Berecz had also testified that Mrs. Massa was present at the meeting in October 1961 when Mortimer Scheer was expelled from the party and her husband was appointed to the secretariat of the Erie County branch of the party. Moreover, the committee had developed information that Mrs. Massa replaced her husband as a member of the secretariat of the Erie County party m 1962.
Confronted with this testimony and information, Mrs. Massa in- voked the fifth amendment and declined to answer questions regard- ing her membersliip in the Communist Party, her appointment to the Erie County secretariat, the nature of the duties she performs as a member of the secretariat, or the degree of cooperation between the Erie County Communist Party and the Progressive Labor Movement.
Max Berman, the next witness, had also been identified by Andrew Berecz as a member of the Communist Party who attended the (3ctober 1961 meeting.
Mr. Berman declined to affirm or deny the accuracy of statements concerning him in Mr. Berecz' testimony.
Other than to identify himself by name, Mr. Berman invoked the fifth amendment and other reasons in refusing to answer every ques- tion asked by the committee.
The committee next received the testimony of Miroslaw (Marty) Zelman, who had come into the Buffalo area as a colonizer for the Com- munist Party.
Mr. Berecz had testified about several Communist Party meetings he had attended with Mr. Zelman. Of particular importance was the meeting in October 1961, at which Mr. Zelman was appointed to the secretariat by Ben Davis. Since that date he had remained a member of that body, directing party activity in the Buffalo area, according to Mr. Berecz.
Mr. Zelman refused to supply the committee with any information except his name. He mvoked the fifth amendment and other reasons in refusing to either affirm or deny testimony given by Mr. Berecz, past or present membership in the Communist Party, membership on the secretariat, or whether changes in the secretariat had been made by Betty Gannett at a meeting in his home.
In a statement made prior to being sworn as a witness, Joseph Pranis, the next person to testify, declared that he was a member of the United Auto Workers and supported the union in its stand calling for abolition of the Committee on Un-American Activities.
Testimony had been received from Mr. Berecz regarding a meeting of the Tonawanda Club of the Erie County Communist Party which was held in Mr. Pranis' home on January 15, 1960.
Mr. Pranis declined to tell the committee if he had allowed his home to be used for a Communist Party meeting, basing his refusal on the protection afforded him under the Constitution, including the fifth amendment. He also invoked constitutional protection in refusing to answer questions regarding his past or present membership in the
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE BUFFALO, N.Y., AREA 1525
Communist Party, acquaintance with ]\[r. Berecz, or membership in the Progressive Labor Movement,
Emanuel Fried, a former official of the Communist-dominated United Electrical, Radio and Machine Workers union, had been identi- fied as a member of the Communist Party by Jack Davis in testimony before the Committee on Un-American Activities in 1954 and by Charles Regan and Joseph Chatley in 1957.
Appearing as a witness during the present hearings, Mr. Fried invoked the fifth amendment and other reasons in declining to answer all questions pertaining to membership in the Conmiunist Party. He also refused, on the same grounds, to tell the committee if he had dis- cussed Communist Party techniques as they apply to labor groups with individuals who had been identified by Mr. Berecz as Communist Party colonizers.
After Mr. Fried was excused, the committee recalled Tobias Schwartz.
Mr. Schwartz blamed his conduct of the ]:)revious evening on the stress and tension of a long day.
Like Sy Rudner, Tobias Schwartz is employed by the Roswell Park Memorial Institute of BufTalo, which is under contract with the National Institutes of Health. As a research fellow at the State University of New York at Buffalo, he is doing graduate work in the biological sciences on a grant from the Roswell Park Memorial In- stitute. Mr. Schwartz testified that he has been in "this particular program from roughly 1958 * * * ."
The witness was asked if the committee was correctly informed that he had been a member of the Communist Party and, in 1960, was as- signed to the Professional Club of the Erie County party.
Mr. Schwartz refused to affirm or deny the accuracy of the informa- tion, invoking constitutional protection, including the fifth amend- ment.
In his summation, Mr. Pool, chairman of the subcommittee, thanked the members of several Government agencies who had assisted the com- mittee during these hearings. He then stated :
The record of this hearing speaks for itself. There are those who say that communism presents no problem — and no danger — to the United States. I believe that the facts de- veloped in this hearing and the conduct of the witnesses — all of them identified as members of the Communist Party — are sufficient to refute this claim.
Basically, there are only two ways of life in the govern- mental or political sphere — the way of law and the way of the jungle.
Communism, through the conduct of its adherents in these hearings, has been shown to be a throwback, a back-to-the- jungle movement — in other words, the blackest form of reac- tion. I make this point because there are some who still enter- tain the illusion that communism is somehow "progressive" or "liberal."
C03IMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE BUFFALO, N.Y., AREA
WEDNESDAY, APRIL 29, 1964
United States House of Representatives,
Subcommittee of tiie Commhtee on Un-American Activities,
Buffalo,N.Y.
PUBLIC hearings
A subcommittee of the Committee on Un-American Activities met, pursuant to call, at 10 a.m. in Room 704 of the United States Court- house Building, Buffalo, New York, Hon. Joe R, Pool (chairman of the subcommittee) presiding.
(Subcommittee members: Representatives Edwin E. Willis, of Louisiana; Joe R. Pool, of Texas; August E. Johansen, of Michigan; Richard H. Ichord, of Missouri ; and John M. Ashbrook, of Ohio.)
Subcommittee members present: Representatives Pool, Johansen, Ichord, and Ashbrook.
Staff members present: Francis J. McNamara, director; William Plitz and Alfred M. Nittle, counsel ; and Louis J. Russell and Philip R. Manuel, investigators.
Mr. Pool (presiding). The committee will come to order.
I first want to announce that there will be no smoking in the court- room. That is the rule of the Federal judge that presides over this court, and there will be no smoking in this room.
This subcommittee of the House Committee on Un-American Activities is convened today in Buffalo, New York, to conduct hear- ings upon the subjects of inquiry and for the legislative purposes set forth in the committee resolution adopted March 4, 1964. I offer this resolution for the record. It reads as follows :
BE IT RESOLVED, That hearings be held by the Committee on Un-American Activities or a subcommittee thereof, at such times and places as the Chairman may determine, and that the staff be authorized to conduct investigations deemed reasonably necessary in preparation therefor, relating to :
1. As concerns the Buffalo, N.T., area : the structure and organization of the Communist Party of the United States; its major objectives, and the strategic and tactical methods designed to aid in accomplishing such objectives ; the major areas of Communist Party concentration ; the international conspiracy aspect of the Communist Party of the United States, as well as like information regarding other Communist organizations, in order that the Committee and Congress may be informed of the extent, character and objectives of the Com- munist Party and other Communist organizations for the purpose of recommend- ing and adopting remedial legislation designed to protect the national security of the country.
2. Any other matter within the jurisdiction of the Committee vi^hich it, or any subcommittee thereof, appointed to conduct these hearings, may designate.
1527 36-414—64 2
1528 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE BUFFALO, N.Y., AREA
While the overall objectives of the world Communist movement and the U.S. Communist Party remain constant, changes occur within the movement and the party, in the structure of their affiliated organiza- tions, and in the tactics or strategy employed for the accomplishment of their objectives. Only by continuing investigations can these changes be fully determined, the facts obtained, and legislation devised to provide for the security of the Nation.
This committee last conducted a series of hearings in Buffalo in 1957, relating to the activities of the Communist Party in this area. Since that time, information has come to the attention of the com- mittee that certain significant changes have occurred. Preliminary investigations by the committee reveal that in this city, within recent years, there have sprung up two new Communist organizations known as the Workers World Party, which has split off from the Socialist Workers Party, a Trotskyite group, and the Progressive Labor Move- ment, which has split off from the main or orthodox Communist Party.
For a time following the death of Lenin in 1924, the struggle for succession between Stalin and Trotsky created dissension within the world Communist movement. Both had followers within the Soviet Union and outside it. A major point of difference between them was that — while both believed in world revolution — Stalin's strategy was to give primacy to the consolidation of Communist power in Soviet Russia, while Trotsky emphasized the immediate promotion of addi- tional Communist revolutions in other countries. Stalin finally over- came Trotsky, exiled him in 1927, and later, in 1940, had him assassi- nated in Mexico.
James P. Cannon, a prominent Communist Party leader in the United States, supported Trotsky. As a result, after Stalin's accession to power. Cannon was read out of the American party. Cannon then formed the Socialist Workers Party in the United States, which fol- lowed Trotsky's line and leadership.
Early in 1959, according to committee investigation, differences within the Socialist Workers Party led certain of its leaders and members to leave the organization and form the Workers World Party, which, as I have said, had its inception here in Buffalo.
A more recent split from the orthodox Communist Party, which reflects the differences between Moscow and Peking concerning the tactics to be adopted by Communists in conquering the world, devel- oped here in Buffalo, following the expulsion in 1961 of two func- tionaries of the New York State Communist Party, namely, Mortimer Scheer and Milton Rosen. These individuals disagreed with the tactical line of Khrushchev and advocated more militant action. They attracted followers within the Communist movement who shared their views, and organized here in Buffalo the nucleus of another new Com- munist group, the Progressive Labor Movement, which now has its headquarters in New York City.
In committee hearings last year dealing with illegal travel to Cuba by 50-odd "students" in the summer of 1963, it was revealed that the majority of the leaders of the group were members of the Progressive Labor Movement. It is significant that while in Cuba the group visited the Red Chinese Embassy, but ignored the Soviet Embassy. The Progressive Labor Movement, by this and other actions such as promoting the sale of Chinese Communist literature in the United
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE BUFFALO, N.Y., AREA 1529
States to the exclusion of Soviet publications, has made it clear that it has taken the side of Peking in the current Sino-Soviet dispute.
Taken together, these various Communist groups present a sub- stantial threat to the peace and security of the United States. All of them advocate revolutionary action to alter our constitutional form of government. This menace demands the attention of the Congress and of this committee which the House has mandated to investigate sub- versive and Communist activities.
I now oifer for the record the order of appointment of this subcom- mittee, as follows :
March 26, 1964.
To : Mr. Francis J. McNamara,
Director, Committee on Un-American Activities.
Pursuant to the provisions of the law and the Rules of this Committee, I hereby appoint a subcommittee of the Committee on Un-American Activities, consisting of Honorable Joe R. Pool, Honorable Richard H. Ichord, Honorable August E. Johansen, and Honorable John M. Ashbrook, as associate members, and myself, as Chairman, to conduct hearings in Buffalo, New York, commencing on or about Tuesday, April 14, 1964, and/or at such other times thereafter and places as said subcommittee shall determine, as contemplated by the resolution adopted by the Committee on the 4th day of March, 1964, authorizing hearings concerning certain Communist activities in the Buffalo, New York area, and other matters under investigation by the Committee.
Please make this action a matter of Committee record.
If any member indicates his inability to serve, please notify me.
Given under my hand this 26th day of March, 1964.
/s/ Edwin E. Willis Edwin E. Willis Chairman, Committee on JJn-Am^erican Activities
As stated in the order here, Mr. Willis, the chairman of the com- mittee, was to preside at this hearing, but pressing business kept him in Washington, and he has appointed me to act as chairman in his place.
According to the rules of the House, the rules forbid televising of hearings, and I will have to ask that the television cameras, et cetera, be turned off or removed from the hearing room.
The committee has received a request from Robert Fleming, attorney for two witnesses subpenaed to testify here today, that the committee adopt new rules of procedure for this hearing. The committee met this morning and considered the request and denied it. The committee determined that it should proceed as in the past and as all congressional committees proceed — proceed in that manner. It is bound by the Rules of the House of Representatives, and we are going to follow them, and proceed.
A few minutes ago, the committeemen met in executive session and considered a request of a group of lawyers here, and, as I understand it, they have selected one lawyer who would like to speak to the com- mittee, and if he will come forward, we will be glad to hear him.
I would like to point out that one man will represent all the lawyers here and make his request. As I understand it, they all have the same request, and I would like to have the names of the lawyers, if you will give those to the reporter.
Also, I would like to ask that the statement be brief and concise and to the point.
Mr. Faulkner. My name is Stanley Faulkner. I am an attorney from New York City and I represent witnesses before this committee.
1530 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE BUFFALO, N.Y., AREA
I also want to introduce to the committee the other attorneys who are representing other witnesses before the committee, and then I will make my request to the committee.
Mr. Witt. My name is Nathan Witt, Post Office Box 156, New York City, 23, New York. I am an attorney and am here representing the subpenaed witness, eToseph Scioli.
Mr. Gibson. I am Will Gibson. My address is 319 Main Street, Buffalo, New York. 1 represent the witnesses, Mr. Zelman and Mr. Berman.
Mr. GoLLOBiisr. My name is Ira Gollobin, and I am from New York City, 1441 Broadway, New York 18. I am representing Mr. and Mrs. Schwartz, Mr. Paul Sporn, and Mr. Zvaleko.
Mr. LiPSiTz. My name is Richard Lipsitz, 120 Delaware Avenue, Buffalo, New York. I represent Joseph Pranis, P-r-a-n-i-s.
Mr. Fleming. My name is Robert Fleming, 77 West Eagle Street, Buffalo, New York. I represent Emanuel Fried and Gloria Massa.
Mr. Bradley. My name is Martin R. Bradley, Jr. My office ad- dress is 900 Ellicott Square, Buffalo, New York. I represent Mrs. Moos.
Mr. HiTZ. Mr. Faulkner, you have not stated whom you represent.
Mr. Faulkner, Mr. and Mrs. Alexander and Mr. Rudner.
Mr. Chairman, the request is made at this time that the committee, in the manner and order in which it is holding the hearing this morning in this courtroom and under the conditions in which it is being held, is not a public hearing, within your own rules. I refer to rule XI, sub- section 26(g), which states: "All hearings conducted by standing committees or their subcommittees shall be open to the public."
Now, Mr. Chairman, I undei stand that this hearing this morning is being attended by persons who have gained admission by invitation. It has not been a first-come-tirst-serve operation. I think that any public hearing, to serve the purpose for which it is intended and which this committee has amiounced in its own rules, should be open to the public in the true sense of the word. My opinion is that this is not a public hearing. It is violating — this committee is violating its own rules.
I recommend that the committee go back into session and reconsider, for the purpose of moving to a larger courtroom, which I understand is available in the building, so that those people who want to attend can have the opportmiity to do so, provided they are in line early enough to gain admission, but that there be no discrimination on ad- mission to those who have received invitations, either by members of this committee or by organizations who have been given these invita- tions by members of this committee.
I challenge, for the record, the committee hearing this morning as being a public hearing. It is not. It is a farce.
[Applause in the audience.]
Mr. Faulkner. I am speaking for all the attorneys.
Mr. Pool. Just a minute. There will be no further applause or demonstration in this hearing room.
The committee met and considered the request this morning, and they are unanimous in their agreement that they feel that it is a public hearing, since the press, television, and others are here, and no doubt
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES EST THE BUFFALO, N.T., AREA 1531
some of your friends are here too. What we heard a while ago, so in- dicates. So the request has been denied.
Mr. Faulkner. I don't know, Mr. Chairman, whether you are fa- miliar with the constitutional rights of public trial, and certainly if this were a public trial in a courtroom, it would not stand up. I also think that the minimum that this committee should do is respect its own rules. I think it is not doing so, and I take strong exception to the consideration that this committee took this morning.
Mr. Pool. I understand you disagree with me, and that is fine, but we have rendered a decision and we consider it a public hearing.
Mr. JoHANSEN. Mr. Chairman, let the record show that this is not a public trial.
Mr. Pool. Thank you, Mr. Johansen.
I have already given you men the right to talk, so I will go ahead with the hearings.
Will counsel proceed and call your first witness.
Mr. Gibson. I represent two of the subpenaed witnesses.
Mr. Pool. You will appear.
Mr. Gibson. I think it was agreed in the hallway prior to this hear- ing that these requests be made prior to the opening of the hearing.
Mr. Pool. I gave you the right to appoint a spokesman, and you have had your say, and we have denied the request.
Mr. Gibson. This has nothing to do with the request that was jointly made. It has something to do with the request I want to make with respect to the two witnesses I represent.
Mr. Pool. When they come before the committee, I am sure that you will be allowed to make your statement.
Mr. Gibson. If the Chair would listen to my request, I think the Chair will agree that this request can be made now.
Mr. Pool. It is not time at this time, and I will ask counsel to pro- ceed with calling the first witness.
Mr. Gibson. I insist
Mr. Pool. You had your chance to speak, and your spokesman did not bring this up.
Mr. Gibson. This is a different point.
Mr. Pool. We will take it up at the proper time.
Mr. Gibson. This is the proper time. We would like to know whether this table is bugged ; is it bugged ? It was last time.^
Mr. Pool. Counsel, proceed with the first witness.
Mr. Bradley. Let the record show that you did not answer the question.
Mr. HiTz. I call Andrew Berecz to the witness stand.
Mr. Pool. Mr. Berecz, will you stand and take the oath. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before this committee will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Berecz. I do.
TESTIMONY OF ANDREW J. BERECZ
Mr. HiTZ. Mr. Chairman, I am advised tliat this microphone may need some attention. I wonder if I could give it that attention?
_Mr. Pool. We will hold up the proceedings until you get your microphone fixed. Off the record.
*See p. 1666, chairman's closing statement, i.rs. 5 and 6.
1532 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE BUFFALO, N.Y., AREA
(There was a brief disoussion off the record.)
Mr. Pool. It has just been brought to my attention that some radio microphones have been placed around the room. I will order that they all be removed, because they are not supposed to be in here. I don't know which one is which. Counsel, are you ready to proceed?
Mr. HiTz. I am ready, and I am proceeding on the theory that there is no live or recording television apparatus in operation in the room and that there is no radio apparatus in the room, and I would like the chairman please to make the announcement that we are proceeding on that theory.
Mr. Pool. That is the theory we are proceeding on, and I will caution you, for the last time, to remove any radio or television ap- paratus ; that this hearing cannot be covered on that. Go ahead.
Mr. HiTZ. Will you give your full name, please ?
Mr. Bereoz. Andrew J. Berecz.
Mr. Hrrz. Your address ?
Mr. Berecz. 792 Kuie Road, North Tonawanda.
Mr. HiTz. Is that B-e-r-c-z ?
Mr. Berecz. B-e-r-e-c-z.
Mr. HiTz. And the road on which you live is R-u-i-e?
Mr. Berecz. That is correct, sir.
Mr. HiTz. When and where were you born, Mr. Berecz ?
Mr. Berecz. I was bom in Hungary, sir.
Mr. HiTZ. When ?
Mr. Berecz. 1914, February 28.
Mr. HiTZ. When did you come to this country ?
Mr. Berecz. 1929.
Mr. HiTz. Are you a naturalized American citizen ?
Mr. Berecz. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hrrz. When were you naturalized ?
Mr. Berecz. In 1936.
Mr. HiTz. Wliere are you now employed ?
Mr. Berecz. American Radiator and Standard Sanitary Corpora- tion of Buffalo, New York.
Mr. HiTZ. How long have you been employed by American Radiator?
Mr. Berecz. Thirty-one years.
Mr. HiTZ. Did you ever join the International Workers Order, Mr. Berecz ?
Mr. Berecz. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hrrz. When did you do that ?
Mr. Berecz. The latter part of '36 or the first part of '37 ; I am not sure, sir.
Mr. HiTz. Will you tell us, What was the International Workers Order at that time ?
Mr. Berecz. At that time, the International Workers Order was one of those fraternal societies with insurance and sick benefits.
Mr. HiTz. Insurance and sick benefits ?
Mr. Berecz. Yes.
Mr. HiTZ. Is that the purpose for which you joined the organi- zation ?
Mr. Berecz. Yes, sir.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE BUFFALO, N.Y., AREA 1533
Mr. HiTz. How long did you remain a member of the organi- zation ?
Mr. Berecz. Until New York State liquidated it.
Mr. HiTZ. When was that?
Mr. Berecz. I believe it was aroimd 1950.
Mr. Hrrz. Did you ever hold an official position in the IWO ?
Mr. Berecz. Yes, sir.
Mr. HiTz. What j^osition did you hold ?
Mr. Berecz. I was the financial secretary for the Hungarian Sec- tion for 15 years or so, from the time I joined and almost until it was liquidated.
Mr. Hrrz. Wliat other positions did you hold in the organization?
Mr. Berecz. Well, there was a club, that we called it.
Mr. HiTz. A what?
Mr. Berecz. A club.
Mr. HiTz. Club?
Mr. Berecz. Yes, sir. There were five different nationalities at the club. There were Hungarians, Polish, Ukrainians, Russians, and Czechoslovakians, and I was the chairman of this club which had a barroom and different things.
Mr. HiTz. You were the chairman of it. How would you describe the club, as chairman of the club, and give its name ?
Mr. Berecz. They called it the International Workers Order Center.
Mr. Hrrz. You were chairman of the Center ?
Mr. Berecz. Yes, sir.
Mr. HiTz. Will you pull that microphone toward you? And talk into it?
Mr. Berecz. Yes, sir.
Mr. HiTz. Thank you. In what period of time were you the chair- man of this club ?
Mr. Berecz. From about 1939 until 1941.
Mr. HiTz. And when were you the financial secretary of the Hun- garian Section?
Mr. Berecz. From about '38 until it was almost liquidated.
Mr. Hrrz. Are you aware of any contribution by the International Workers Order for the Communist Party, sir ?
Mr. Berecz. Up to the latter part of '41, 1 wasn't, sir. In the latter part of '41 or early part of '42, I am not sure of the year, the com- mittee that was formed at this place decided that they were going to give $300 to each one of the nationality papers. At this time, they also donated $300 to the Communist Party paper, what they called the Daily Worker at that time.
Mr. HiTZ. Now, who was it that made the contribution; I am not thinking of the individuals, but you say this organization did ; what part of the organization of the International Workers Order did that?
Mr. Berecz. Well, this was a group of people elected from each one of the branches, two persons from each one of the nationality groups that I named, and that was the committee that then did this donation.
Mr. HiTz. That is the committee that what ?
Mr. Berecz, That gave the donation to the papers.
1534 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE BUFFALO, N.Y., AREA
Mr. HiTz. Did that come within your jurisdiction as an officer of thelWO?
Mr. Bekecz. Yes, sir.
Mr. HiTZ. In your capacity as financial secretary of the Hungarian Section or as financial chairman of the Buffalo operation?
Mr. Berecz. As both, sir.
Mr.HiTz. Both?
Mr. Berecz. Yes, sir.
Mr. HiTz. Who obtained this donation from the IWO for the Daily Worker?
Mr. Berecz. At that time it was a fellow by the name of Frank Herron.
Mr. HiTz. Is that H-e-r-r-o-n ?
Mr. Berecz. I don't know the spelling of his name, sir. I haven't seen that man since.
Mr. HiTZ. And who authorized that payment for the Daily Worker — to the Daily Worker?
Mr. Berecz. Well, the committee did.
Mr. HiTz. Did you participate in the authorization of that pay- ment?
Mr. Berecz. Yes, sir, because I did not know what it was. I did not know what the Daily Worker was at that time.
Mr. HiTz. Subsequently, was there a further effort by the Commu- nist Party to obtain a contribution from the International Workers Order?
Mr. Berecz. Yes, sir.
Mr. HiTz. How long after that ?
Mr. Berecz. About 3 weeks or so, they came down from the common headquarters and they did not ask they demanded, $600, and this is when I
Mr. Hrrz. Wlio came down to the IWO ?
Mr. Berecz. A girl by the name of Svea Katz.
Mr. HiTz. Will you spell her first name ?
Mr. Berecz. I'm not sure.
Mr. HiTz. S-v-e-a ; does that sound like it ?
Mr. Berecz. It sounds like it, but I don't know.
Mr. Hrrz. The last name ?
Mr. Berecz. Katz.
Mr. HiTz. How do you spell that ?
Mr. Berecz. That is K-a-t-z.
Mr.HiTZ. Wlioelse?
Mr. Berecz. A fellow by the name of Leonard Costa.
Mr. HiTz. Would you give us an attempted spelling for that ?
Mr. Berecz. C-o-s-t-a.
Mr. HiTz. Would you consider that a phonetic effort to spell that; do you know what I mean ?
Mr. Berecz. Well, I would.
Mr. HiTZ. Do you know what I mean ?
Mr. Berecz. Yes, sir, I do ; but I don't know his full name, the spell- ing of it.
Mr. HiTz. Thank you. Did anyone else make this request or de- mand upon the IWO for a contribution ?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE BUFFALO, N.Y., AREA 1535
Mr. Berecz. Well, there were certain members of the committee that did.
Mr. HiTz. Are these the only two that made the request or demand, as you have said, on behalf of the Communist Party for a $600 con- tribution from the IWO ?
Mr. Berecz. Yes, sir,
Mr. HiTZ. "VYliat took place in answer to this request ?
Mr. Berecz. Well, I, as chairman, did not agree with them and I refused; and I told them that as long as I was the chairman I wasn't willing to give them money because, to begin with, these people were never around.
Mr. HiTz. They were never what ?
Mr. Berecz. They never came around any other time, just when they wanted the money, so I refused, and the committee voted that they would give them money, and I refused to sign a check, so at this time they called a general membership meeting of all the branches, the five branches that were located in there, and they expelled me from the club, as a chairman of the club. They had a general membership meet- ing where I got up and stated that I was never a Communist and that I never would be one.
Mr. HiTZ. You stated that you were not a Communist ?
Mr. Berecz. That I wouldn't be one.
Mr. HiTZ. Was that a meeting of the committee of the IWO that you were a member of ?
Mr. Berecz. Yes, sir. It was only what they call a general member- ship meeting, that is, all the members of each one of the branches, the sections, the nationality sections, were invited to this meeting.
Mr. HiTz. A general membership meeting?
Mr. Berecz. That is right, sir.
Mr. HiTZ. Will you speak a little more slowly; we are trying to get this recorded.
Mr. Berecz. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hnz. Did you subsequently receive a visit from the Federal Bureau of Investigation?
Mr. Berecz. Yes, sir.
Mr. HiTZ. How much later than your statement of refusal to sign the authorization for the demand of payment to the Communist Party was this ?
Mr. Berecz. Well, I made the statement about 5 o'clock Sunday afternoon and the following morning I received a visit from the FBI.
Mr. HiTz. How many agents of the Federal Bureau of Investiga- tion visited you ?
Mr. Berecz. Three of them.
Mr. HiTZ. What did they say to you ?
Mr. Berecz. They asked me if I would be willing to cooperate with them on Communist activities at the hall.
Mr. HiTZ. At what hall ?
Mr. Berecz. At the International Workers Order Center.
Mr. HiTz. Wliat did you reply ?
Mr. Berecz. Yes.
Mr, HiTZ. What year was that ?
Mr. Berecz. In 1942.
Mr. HiTz. What part of the year?
1536 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE BUFFALO, N.Y., AREA
Mr. Berecz. The latter part of the year; I don't recall the month; somewhere around October, somewhere around there, sir; I don't recall the exact month.
Mr. Hrrz. Now, did they specify any particular activity that they wanted you to report to them on in the IWO ?
Mr. Beregz. Yes; they asked me to report on Communist activities in the Center and in the groups, as well.
Mr. HiTz. In the wliat?
Mr. Berecz. In the Center and in the nationality groups.
Mr, IIiTZ. Did you report to the Federal Bureau of Investigation as they requested you to ?
Mr. Berecz. Yes, sir.
Mr, HiTz. Over what period of time did you report to them, sir?
Mr. Berecz. From 1942 to 1962,
Mr. HiTz. Did the Federal Bureau of Investigation make a further request of you, approximately in 1962 ?
Mr. Berecz. 1946.
Mr. HiTz. I am sori-y about the date. They did make a further request of you ?
Mr, Berecz, Yes, sir.
Mr. HiTz. Wliat was the request they made then ?
Mr. Berecz. They asked me if I was invited to join the Communist Party, that I should join and start reporting on the activity of the Communist Party in the Buif alo area.
Mr.HiTz. What partof 1946 was that?
Mr, Berecz. In the latter part of '46, also, sir.
Mr. HiTz. Were you subsequently invited to join the Communist Party?
Mr. Berecz. Yes, sir.
Mr, Hrrz, Tell us who invited you,
Mr, Berecz, A fellow by the name— who was the organizer at the time, by the name of Sam Coleman and John Touralchuk.
Mr. Hrrz. Is that spelled T-o-u-r-a-l-c-h-u-k ?
Mr. Berecz. Yes, sir.
Mr. HiTz, Do you know that to be the spelling ?
Mr, Berecz, Yes, sir.
Mr. HiTZ. How did you respond to that invitation to join the party ?
Mr. Berecz. At the first time I refused, and then I was asked the second time, and I did join the Commimist Party in 1946.
Mr. HiTz. What part of '46 did you join the party ?
Mr. Berecz. The latter part of '46 ; I don't know the exact month. It was later in the fall.
Mr. HiTz, Wliat was your first assignment in the party ? To what part of the party ?
Mr, Berecz, I was in what they called the Industrial Club,
Mr, HiTz. The Industrial Club?
Mr, Berecz. Yes, sir,
Mr. HiTz. Was that here in Buffalo ?
Mr. Berecz. Yes, sir.
Mr. HiTz. Now, at that time, you must have been working for American Radiator ; is that right ?
Mr, Berecz. Yes, sir.
Mr. HiTz. Did you belong to a union at American Radiator Cor- poration?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE BUFFALO, N.Y., AREA 1537
Mr. Berecz. Yes, sir.
Mr. HiTz. What was the union ?
Mr. Berecz. CIO.
Mr. HiTz. And more precisely, what was it ?
Mr. Berecz. A steel union.
Mr.HiTz. WasittheUSWA?
Mr. Berecz. Yes.
Mr. HiTz. What does that mean ?
Mr. Berecz. United Steelworkers of America.
Mr. HiTz. Did you belong to a particular local of the USWA at that time ?
Mr. Berecz. Yes, sir, 1199.
Mr. HiTz. Did you receive a Communist Party card indicating your membership, sir?
Mr. Berecz. Yes, sir.
Mr. HiTz. Did you pay dues ?
Mr. Berecz. Yes, sir.
Mr. HiTz. Did you read the statement of allegiance which was con- tained on the Communist Party card that you received in 1946 ?
Mr. Berecz. Yes, sir.
Mr. HiTz. Wliat was the statement, sir, so far as you can recall ?
Mr. Berecz. "To always defend the interests of the working class" — that meant I pledge allegiance to the Soviet Union and all Communist parties — and to "master" Marxism-Leninism and the program of the party, which in Communist talk meant I would violently overthrow the United States Government.^
Mr. HiTz. Will you repeat that ?
Mr. Berecz. "To always defend the working class" — which meant I pledge allegiance to the Soviet Union and all Communist parties — and to "master" Marxism-Leninism and the party program, and that meant, in Communist talk, I would violently overthrow the United States Government.^
1 For purpoees of clarity, Mr. Berecz asked for and received permission to revise his answer to tliis and to tlie following question. His original reply to the question was as follows : "I pledge allegiance to the Soviet Union. * * * i would violently overthrow the U.S. Government."
" The statement which appeared on the 1946 U.S. Communist Party membership card read in full as follows (emphasis added) :
"Rights and Duties of Party Members
"To attend club meetings, read the Party press and literature, pay dues regularly and he active on behalf of the program and policies of the Party.
"To at all times loyally defend the interests of the working class against the forces of fascism and reaction.
"To fight against all forms of national oppression, discrimination and segregation, and all ideological influences and practices of 'racial' theories.
"To fight for the full social, political and economic equality of the Negro people, for Negro and white unity.
"To participate in working out all policies and tasks of the club, and to regularly examine the execution of such policies.
"To vote for all officers, committees and delegates, and be elected to any office or com- mittee in accord with provisions of the Constitution.
"To appeal any decision with which there is disagreement to the next higher body, carrying out the decision while appeal is pending.
"To strive to master the program and policies of the Party, the principles of Marxism- Leninism."
1538 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE BUFFALO, N.Y., AREA
Mr. HiTZ. Who was the chairman and the organizer of the Indus- trial Club when you joined it, Mr. Berecz ?
Mr. Bekecz. a fellow by the name of Joseph Green.
Mr. HiTz. Joseph Green ?
Mr. Berecz. Yes, sir.
Mr. HiTz. Where did he live ?
Mr. Berecz. He lived in Buffalo here.
Mr. HiTz. Do you remember where he worked at that time?
Mr. Berecz. He worked for American Radiator in the bonding plant.
Mr. HiTZ. B-o-n-d-i-n-g?
Mr. Berecz. B-o-n-d Plant.
Mr.HiTZ. B-o-n-d Plant?
Mr. Berecz. Yes.
Mr. HiTZ. Was Mr. Green also an organizer for the Industrial Club?
Mr. Berecz. Yes, sir.
Mr. HiTZ. What other members of the Industrial Club can you recall at this time ?
Mr. Berecz. Well, offhand, Hyman Rosoff.
Mr. HiTz. R-o-s-o-f-f?
Mr. Berecz. Yes, sir.
Mr. HiTZ. ^¥liere did Mr. Rosoff work?
Mr. Berecz. American Radiator Company — Corporation.
Mr. HiTz. Who else can you remember ?
Mr. Berecz. Milton Kaplan who worked for Westinghouse.
Mr. HiTz. Is his name spelled with a "K" ?
Mr. Berecz. K-a-p-1-a-n,
Mr. HiTz. Can you name anyone else ?
Mr. Berecz. Norman Sternbach.
Mr. Hrrz. His name is spelled S-t-e-r-n-b-a-c-h ?
Mr. Berecz. Yes, sir.
Mr. HiTz. Where did Mr. Sternbach work ?
Mr. Berecz. He also worked for the American Radiator Corpora- tion but in the Stamping Plant.
Mr. HiTZ. Go on.
Mr. Berecz. Also, Sy Rudner worked for American Radiator in the Stamping Plant.
Mr. HiTZ. Is his name R-u-d-n-e-r?
Mr. Berecz. Yes, sir.
Mr. HiTZ. Go on.
Mr. Berecz. Milton Rosen.
Mr. HiTZ. Milton R-o-s-e-n?
Mr. Berecz. Yes, sir.
Mr. HiTZ. Do you remember anyone else ?
Mr. Berecz. Offhand, I don't recall anybody else, sir.
Mr. HiTz. In this period of time, did you know Diantha Hoag ?
Mr. Berecz. Yes, sir.
Mr. HiTZ, Did you then Imow where she was employed ?
Mr. Berecz. Yes; she also belonged to the club and she worked at Westinghouse.
Mr. HiTZ. At that time did you know Russell DePasquale ?
Mr. Berecz. Yes, sir.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES EST THE BUFFALO, N.Y., AREA 1539
Mr. HiTz. D-e-P-a-s-q-u-a-1-e ; did you know liim then ?
Mr. Berecz. Yes, sir.
Mr. HiTz. Did vou know where he then worked ?
Mr. Berecz. I believe he was working at the Bethlehem Steel Com- pany in Lackawanna.
Mr. HiTz. Was he a member of the Industrial Club at that time?
Mr. Berecz. Yes, sir.
Mr. HiTZ. Did you know a person named Alexander Salmin, S-a-1-m-i-n, or thereabouts ?
Mr. Berecz. Yes, sir.
Mr. HiTZ. Wliere did he work, sir ?
Mr. Berecz. He also worked for American Radiator Company in the Bond Plant.
Mr. HiTZ. Did you know him in any other way ?
Mr. Berecz. Well, he belonged to the Industrial Club, also.
Mr. HiTZ. Industrial Club?
Mr. Berecz. Yes, sir.
Mr. HiTz. Did you know anyone working at the Twin Coach Com- pany at that time ?
Mr. Berecz. Yes, sir.
Mr. HiTZ. Who did you laiow working there ?
Mr. Berecz. A fellow by the name of Anthony Massa.
Mr. HiTz. Anthony M-a-s-s-a ?
Mr. Berecz. Yes, sir.
Mr. HiTZ. Did you know him in any other way than as an employee of Twin Coach?
Mr. Berecz. Well, he was in the party and he came to some of the meetings, the Industrial Club meetings.
Mr. HiTZ. By "party," what party do you mean ?
Mr. Berecz. The Communist Party of U.S.A.
Mr. HiTZ. Do you now recall names of any other members of the Industrial Club ^ of the Communist Party in the Buffalo area ?
Mr. Berecz. (No response.)
Mr. HiTz. If you don't, just tell us you don't.
Mr. Berecz. No, I don't.
Mr. HiTZ. How long did you remain a member of the Industrial Club, Mr. Berecz ?
1 Mr. Berecz, contacted by the committee after this hearing, advised that he had inad- vertently used the expression. "Industrial Club," In referring to the Industrial Section of the Communist Party in his above testimony (pp. 1536-1540).
Tlie Industrial Section, he added, was made up of a number of clubs, each composed of workers in different Industries and/or plants. The Bond Club, to which he had belonged, was one of the clubs in the Industrial Section. (It was composed of part.v members em- ployed in the bonding plant of the American Radiator & Standard Sanitary Corp.)
Mr. Berecz further stated that party members in industry and the individual Communists that he had named on pages 15.S6-1540 of his testimony were members of the various cluljs in the Industrial Section, rather than members of the section (which did not have members as such, although a number of party leaders were assigned to it as organizers).
With this clarification, he stated that Joseph Green was an organizer for the Industrial Section of the party in Erie County and chairman of the Bond Club. He also stated that Hyman RosoflP, Milton Kaplan. Norman Sternbach, Sy Rudner. and Alexander Salmin — all inadvertently referred to In his testimony as members of the "Industrial Club" — were actually members of the Bond Club. Dlantha Hoag, he stated, worked at Westinghouse and was not technically a member of the Bond Club, but attended its meetings because, after the committee's 1957 hearlnsrs in Buffalo, the Westinchouse Club had been dissolved.
Mr. Berecz stated that Milton Rosen, Russell DePasqTiale. and Anthony Massa were all organizers for the Industrial Section of the party. To his knowledge, they were not attached to any particular club in the section but, as organizers of it, could attend meetings of any of the clubs in it.
Mr. Berecz' clarification of his testimony is substantiated by the testimony of another former FBI undercover informant, Charles Regan, who testified before this committee on the Communist Party's organizational structure in Erie County in the 1957 hearings.
1540 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE BUFFALO, N.Y., AREA
Mr. Berecz, Probably I was a member of the Industrial Club, about 12, 13 years, or better than that, sir.
Mr. HiTZ. That would be until somewhere in the neighborhood of 1958 or '59?
Mr. Berecz. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hjtz. Wliat happened to the club then ?
Mr. Berecz. Well, at that time, the party was taking some steps.
Mr. HiTz. The party did what ?
Mr. Berecz. It was taking some necessaiy steps for security, and the club was dissolved ; the Industrial Club was dissolved, and they more or less set up what they called the community clubs.
Mr. HiTZ. Do you know what caused those certain security steps to be taken ?
Mr. Berecz. Yes, sir.
Mr. HiTZ. Tell us what that was.
Mr. Berecz. The Smith Act and the McCarran Act and the registra- tion for the party.
Mr. HiTz. What acts did they take that caused the Industrial Club to be liquidated ?
Mr. Berecz. Well, I think they had no more use for it because there wasn't too many men that belonged to it, and I think that security coming in the club was their idea. It was to cut the clubs back to four, if it's necessary, and not more than eight, regardless of what happened ; so just in case, if a place where the meetings was held was raided, there wouldn't be too many members there.
Mr. HiTz. Which community club were you assigned to ?
Mr. Berecz. I was assigned to the Tonawanda Club.
Mr. HiTZ. About what year was that, Mr. Berecz ?
Mr. Berecz. Somewhere around '59 and '60; somewhere around there, sir.
Mr. HiTZ. How long did you remain a member of the Tonawanda Community Club ?
Mr. Berecz. About a year before I testified in front of the Sub- versive [Activities Control] Board.
Mr. HiTZ. When was that you testified before that Board ?
Mr. Berecz. In 1962, October.
Mr. HiTz, Was the Tonawanda Community Club a branch of the Communist Party, sir?
Mr. Berecz. Yes, sir.
Mr. HiTz. And was it a part of the Erie County branch of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Berecz. Yes, sir.
Mr. HiTz. Did the Communist Party at that time have any na- tionality clubs in this area?
Mr. Berecz. Not at that time; the nationality club was started later.
Mr. HiTz, Did you ever belong to a nationality club of the Com- munist Party ?
Mr. Berecz. Yes, sir.
Mr. HiTz. Will you tell us when that was and what sort of a club it was?
Mr. Berecz. Well, a nationality club was organized about 1961, and the idea was to create the nationality culture and background of the
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE BUFFALO, N.Y., AREA 1541
nationality club, and this is to gain more members for the Com- munist Party.
Mr. HiTz. When did you leave the Communist Party, Mr. Berecz ?
Mr. Berecz. In 1962, sir.
Mr. HiTz. What part of the year ?
Mr. Berecz. That was in October.
Mr. HiTz. During your membership in the Communist Part}^ were you aware of the movement of the people from New York City and thereabouts, into the Buffalo area, who were members of the Com- munist Party ?
Mr. Berecz. Yes, sir.
Mr. HiTz. Did you have any name or expression for them who did that ?
Mr. Berecz. Well, they were called the colonizers.
Mr. HiTz. Colonizers?
Mr. Berecz. Yes, sir.
Mr. HiTz. Can you name any of the colonizers who came into the Buffalo area in the Communist Party ?
Mr. Berecz. Yes, sir.
Mr. HiTZ. Will you name some you can recall ?
Mr. Berecz. Mortimer Scheer was one who was the Communist Party organizer in this area.
Mr. HiTz. Mortimer Scheer, S-c-h-e-e-r ?
Mr. Berecz. Yes, sir.
Mr. HiTZ. Do you remember him as an officer of the local Com- munist Party after he arrived here ?
Mr. Berecz. Not after he arrived ; later on, he became an officer of the Communist Party — The chairman of the Communist Party of Erie County.
Mr. HiTZ. Of Erie County?
Mr. Berecz. Yes, sir.
Mr. HiTz. When did Mr. Scheer come here as a colonizer in the party ?
Mr. Berecz. It was after 1950 ; I don't recall the year, sir.
Mr. HiTz. And who else came as a colonizer ?
Mr. Berecz. Sy Rudner.
Mr. HiTz. Do you know where he came from ?
Mr. Berecz. As far as I know, they came from New York.
Mr. HiTz. Did you know a man named Milton Rosen at that time ?
Mr. Berecz. Yes, sir.
Mr. HiTZ. Did he depart this area and go elsewhere from the Communist Party of Erie County ?
Mr. Berecz. Yes, sir.
Mr. HiTz. Where did he go and when did he leave?
Mr. Berecz. I don't know the year when he left, but he went to New York to take a job with the Communist Party of U.S.A. as labor sec- retary in New York City.
Mr. HiTz. Was that the position in the New York State Communist Party which he took after he left here ?
Mr. Berecz. Yes, sir.
Mr. HiTz. Did his departure have anything to do with the work of Mortimer Scheer in this area ?
1542 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE BUFFALO, N.Y., AREA
Mr. Berecz, Yes, sir ; when lie departed, then Mortimer Scheer took over as chairman of the Communist Party of Erie Comity in this area.
Mr. HiTz. Where did Mr, Scheer work at this time?
Mr. Berecz. He was working for some cement company; I don't know the name of the company.
Mr. HiTz. Cement company ?
Mr. Berecz. Yes, sir.
Mr. HiTz. In the area ?
Mr. Berecz. In the area.
Mr. HiTZ. Can you name any other colonizers who came into the Communist Party in this area ?
Mr. Berecz. There was quite a few of them at that time, sir. There was Alexander Salmin and Mr. Ingerman.
Mr. HiTz. Say that again?
Mr. Berecz. Ingerman,
Mr. HiTz. How do you spell that ?
Mr. Berecz. I-n-g-e-r-m-a-n.
Mr. HiTz. Do you remember the first name ?
Mr. Berecz. Sid, I believe ; we always called him Sid.
Mr. HiTz. Sid Ingerman. What other colonizers do you remember ?
Mr. Berecz. Edward Wolkenstein.
Mr. HiTz. Is that spelled W-o-l-k-e-n-s-t-e-i-n ?
Mr. Berecz. Yes, sir.
Mr. HiTZ. Anyone else ?
Mr. Berecz. Alexander Sahniii ; I don't know if I named him.
Mr. HiTZ. Yes.
Mr. Berecz. Then there was a man by the name of Marty Zelman.
Mr. HiTZ. Z-e-1-m-a-n?
Mr. Berecz. Yes, sir.
Mr. HiTz. Was Milton Rosen himself a colonizer, sir?
Mr. Berecz. Yes, sir.
Mr. HiTZ. Wliat is a colonizer ?
Mr. Berecz. Well, a colonizer that came up here from New York. They are people well educated and they went into different industries to work and they wouldn't reveal their identity. They would go in steel mills and every kind of a shop to work, instead of going to the profession that they actually belonged to.
Mr. HiTZ. By that, do you mean that they were taking positions that were not up to their capabilities ?
Mr. Berecz. I wouldn't say "up to their capabilities"; they took jobs but they were suited for better jobs than they took.
Mr. HiTZ. They were suited for better jobs than they took?
Mr. Berecz. That is right.
Mr. HiTZ. Now, by that, do you mean that they were suited by rea- son of education or training for better jobs than they took?
Mr, Berecz. I think they were trained for better jobs, yes.
Mr. HiTZ. They were what?
Mr. Berecz. They were trained for better jobs, and they took jobs that did not belong to them. They took hard labor jobs instead of taking the jobs that they actually were trained for.
Mr. HiTz. Would it be accurate to say that they were downgrading their possibilities in taking the new jobs as colonizers?
Mr. Berecz. I would say so, sir.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE BUFFALO, N.Y,, AREA 1543
Mr. Hrrz. Is that a correct statement ?
Mr. Berecz. I think it is.
Mr. HiTz. Go on.
Mr. Berecz. Then there was Walter Zvaleko.
Mr. HiTZ. Is that Z-v-a-1-e-k-o ?
Mr. Berecz. Yes.
Mr. Pool. We will have a short recess.
(A sliort recess was taken.)
Mr. Pool. The hearing will now come to order again.
Counsel may proceed.
Mr. HiTZ. Mr. Berecz, you mentioned Mr. Zvaleko as being a mem- ber of the group of colonizers that you were naming. Is the spelling of his name Z-e-v-a-1-k-o-s ?
Mr. Berecz. No, sir.
Mr. HiTz. "Wliat was the first name of the man whom you recall in the colonizing movement ?
Mr. Berecz. Walter.
Mr. HiTz. Walter?
Mr. Berecz. Yes, sir.
Mr. HiTz. How do you sell his name ?
Mr. Berecz. Z-v-a-1-e-k-o.
Mr. Hii^. No "s" on the end of it ?
Mr. Berecz. No.
Mr. HiTz. Where did Mr. Zvaleko live?
Mr. Berecz. I don't know where he lives, sir.
Mr. HiTZ. Do you know what part of Buffalo he lived in ?
Mr. Berecz. He lives in the south part of Buffalo, I believe.
Mr. HiTz. Do you have anything further to tell us or any other names that you can remember in the colonizing movement of the Com- munist Party in this area ?
Mr. Berecz. Yes, sir ; more names. Paul Sporn.
Mr. HiTz. Where did he come from ?
Mr. Berecz. New York City, also.
Mr. HiTZ. Wliere did he go ?
Mr. Berecz. What do you mean, "where did he go," sir?
Mr. HiTz. Well, he arrived in the Buffalo area; is that right, sir?
Mr. Berecz. Yes, sir.
Mr. HiTZ. What part of the area did he arrive in and where did he go here ?
Mr. Berecz. I don't know where he went when he arrived, and I kno-f^ that he is working at U.B.— as assistant professor at the Uni- "»'orsity of Buffalo.
Mr. HiTz. University of Buffalo?
Mr. Berecz. Yes, sir.
Mr. HiTz. Will you tell us whom you remember as organizers of the Communist Party while you were a member of the party ?
Mr. Berecz. I joined the Communist Party and the organizers were Norman Ross and Sam Coleman.
Mr. HiTz. Is that C-o-l-e-m-a-n ?
Mr. Berecz. Yes. That was from '46 to '48, and then there was a fellow by the name of Johnnie Noto.
Mr. HiTZ. Slow down. Johhnie who ?
Mr. Berecz. Noto.
36-414—64 3
1544 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE BUFFALO, N.Y., AREA
Mr. HiTZ. N-o-t-o ?
Mr. Berecz. Yes, sir.
Mr. HiTz. Who else?
Mr. Berecz. Russell DePasquale, Joseph Green, Milton Rosen, and Mortimer Scheer ; that's up to '61.
Mr. HiTZ. Did you attend a meeting of the group of the members of the Communist Party in Buffalo in the month of October 1961, Mr. Berecz ?
Mr. Berecz. Yes, sir.
Mr. HiTz. Of such meetings, do you recall one in which there came two members of the Communist Party from New York City ?
Mr. Berecz. Yes, sir.
Mr. HiTz. Were they high officials of the party ?
Mr. Berecz. Yes, sir.
Mr. HiTz. Who were they ?
Mr. Berecz. Ben Davis and Louis Weinstock from New York City.
Mr. HiTZ. Do you know what their positions in the Communist Party were at that time ?
Mr. Berecz. Well, one was the New York State secretary of the Communist Party — Ben Davis; and Louis Weinstock was the labor secretary of the Communist Party.
Mr. HiTz. Can you tell us whom Louis Weinstock succeeded as labor secretary ?
Mr. Berecz. Milton Rosen.
Mr. HiTZ. Is he the one who had left Buffalo some time before?
Mr. Berecz. Yes, sir.
Mr. HiTz. Wliere was this meeting at which those two New York officials appeared?
Mr. Berecz. The only way I know is a fellow by the name of Mc- Kenzie ; it was at his house.
Mr. HiTz. "Wliere in this area was the house; do you remember?
Mr. Berecz. Around the Humboldt Park section ; I don't remember the street or I do not remember the number of the house.
Mr. HiTZ. Will you tell us who were present at the meeting?
Mr. Berecz. Well, there was Benjamin Davis from New York, Louis Weinstock, Paul Sporn, Mr. and Mrs. Massa.
Mr. HiTZ. Give her first name.
Mr. Berecz. Mr. Anthony Massa and Mrs. Gloria Massa and Gert- rude Alexander and Dick Alexander.
Mr. HiTz. Richard Alexander ?
Mr. Berecz. Yes, sir. Edward Wolkenstein, Walter Zvaleko, Marty Zelman and his wife.
Mr. HiTz. Give his wife's name ?
Mr. Berecz. Dottie Zelman, and also Mr. and Mrs. Berman, Bea Berman and Max Berman.
Mr. HiTZ. Do you remember anyone else who was present?
Mr. Berecz. Walter Zvaleko and his wife. Vera Zvaleko, Sy Rudner.
Mr. HiTz. Who was the principal officer of the Communist Party of this area at tliis meeting. ?
Mr. Berecz. Mortimer Scheer.
Mr. HiTz. Can you remember anybody else who was present?
Mr. Bekecz. No, sir.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES EST THE BUFFALO, N.Y., AREA 1545
Mr. HiTz. Did Mr. Scheer open the meeting with any remarks that you can now recall ?
Mr, Berecz. Yes, sir. He opened tlie meeting up with the remarks that Ben Davis presented a resolution dealing with the Smith and McCarran Acts and the law ordering the Communist Party registra- tion, and everybody would be allowed to talk 5 minutes on the resolu- tion, provided that they called the committee of the Communist Party of the area would have the first choice. Mr. HiTz. Did Mr. Davis present his resolution ? Mr. Berecz. Yes, sir.
Mr. HiTZ. Wliat did he say was the resolution and what did it contain ?
Mr. Berecz. It contained the McCarran Act and the Smith Act and registration of the Communist Party.
Mr. HiTz. Did he say from whence that resolution came ; did he say where he got the resolution ?
Mr. Berecz. From the national party headquarters in New York City. Mr. HiTZ. Did he read it ? Mr. Berecz. Yes, sir.
Hr. HiTz. As best you can recall, what did the resolution say ? Mr. Berecz. Well, it contained about the registering of the Com- munist Party as a foreign agent and registering of its officers as the foreign agents. Mr. Hjtz. Under what provision of the law, if any ? Mr. Berecz. The Smith Act and the McCarran Act. Mr. HiTz. What did it say about the registration ? Mr. Berecz. Well, at that time, he just said that they will take it up with the lawyers and decide what they were going to do, if they were going to register or if they were not going to register.
Mr. HiTz. Did he say what the recommendation of the lawyers was with respect to registering ? Mr. Berecz. No, sir, not over here.
Mr. HiTZ. Do you remember anything else in the resolution ? Mr. Berecz. Also, the resolution called for Mortimer Scheer, who had some disagreement — and in fact, three members of the Buffalo area people had disagreement with the national committee — and he wanted the three members to get in line with the national committee's policy or else we would have to do something about them.
Mr. HiTZ. Did he name the other two besides Mortimer Scheer ? Mr. Berecz. Yes, sir, he did. Mr. HiTz. Wliom did he name ?
Mr. Berecz. He named Edward Wolkenstein and Walter Zvaleko. Mr. HiTZ. Did he say what would happen to those three members of the Buffalo area branch of the Communist Party if they didn't get in line with the national policy ?
Mr. Berecz. He said that they would have to be expelled from the Communist Party.
Mr. HiTZ. Did any others of those present speak upon the resolu- tion or on the remarks of Mr. Davis ? Mr. Berecz. No, sir. Mr. HiTz. Who spoke first ?
1546 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE BUFFALO, N.Y., AREA
Mr. Berecz. Edward Wolkenstein spoke first, and he stated that the National Committee of the Communist Party is the one that is ruining the Communist Party, not the Erie County Communist Party. In other words, they had some disagreement, and the national committee claimed that the Buffalo area Communist Party was the one that was ruining the Communist Party. And Wolkenstein stated that it wasn't the Buffalo party, it was the national Commmiist Party that was ruining it, and the leaders.
Mr. HiTz. Do you remember any more of the details of what Mr. Wolkenstein said in that regard ?
Mr. Berecz. Well, Mr. Wolkenstein said quite a few things at that time. He stated that he was born in the Communist Party and he would like to die in it, but Mr. Ben Davis had otlier ideas. He said he might have been born in it, but he wasn't going to die in it unless he fell in line with the national committee.
Mr. HiTz. Who spoke next ?
Mr. Berecz. As I recollect, I think it was Walter Zvaleko who spoke next. He didn't have too much to say. He said he won't go along with the national committee and he wasn't going to change his attitude towards it.
Mr. HiTZ. Do you recall what was the difference between the policy of the national group as distinguished from the Buffalo group that you were in ?
Mr. Berecz. Well, the national group took the idea to lay back and let the registration business go by, and I think the Buffalo group wanted a more militant, more aggressive Communist Party, and that is what they were dickering for.
Mr. HiTz. Wlio was the principal spokesman of the group that, you say, was the more militant group ?
Mr. Berecz. Well, Mortimer Scheer was the principal speaker.
Mr. HiTz. As leader of the Buffalo branch in Erie County ?
Mr. Berecz. Yes, sir.
Mr. HiTz. Can you recall who spoke next in this meeting?
Mr. Berecz. I laiow Mr. Sporn spoke, and he accused Ben Davis of not reading the resolution the way it was, but he was making up his own.
Mr. HiTZ. Is that Paul Sporn ?
Mr. Berecz. Yes, sir.
Mr. HiTZ. What did he do when he said that he did not think that Mr. Davis was reading the resolution but was making it up ?
Mr. Berecz. Well, he even took it, he looked at it, and lie didn't do anything else about it.
Mr. HiTz. You said he took it ?
Mr. Berecz. Yes, sir.
Mr. HiTz. From where?
Mr. Berecz. From next to Ben Davis, and he was looking at it. I don't know if he read the whole thing or not, but he looked at it anyway.
Mr. HiTz. "Wliat did he say ?
Mr. Berecz. He didn't say nothing.
Mr. HiTZ. Did Bea Berman have anything to say ?
Mr. Berecz. Well, Bea Berman — they all praised Mortimer Scheer that he did a wonderful job in this area for the Communist Party, and they couldn't see why the Communist Party would have to fire him as an organizer in this area.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE BUFFALO, N.Y., AREA 1547
Mr, HiTz. Was there a lady named Lumpkin there ?
Mr. Berecz. Yes, sir.
Mr. IIiTZ. Can you spell her last name and give us her first name ?
Mr. Berecz. L-u-m-p-k-i-n.
Mr. HiTz. What was her first name?
Mr. Berecz. I only know her as Hattie; that's the only way I know her. I don't know any other name.
Mr. PIiTZ. Did Bea Berman have anything to say that you can recall at the meeting?
Mr. Berecz. Well, she said that Mortimer Scheer did a good job among the Negro people in the city of Buffalo and she couldn't see why the party, say, Ben Davis would have to come down here and get rid of him as an organizer in this area.
Mr. IIiTZ. Did Hattie Lumpkin have anything to say to that?
Mr. Berecz. Hattie Lumpkin said the same thing, that he did a good job, and she just couldn't understand it. She had been in the party so long, and she was tired that night, that she had picked grapes all day, and she had to go home and rest and think this over.
Mr. HiTz. Did Ben Davis have anything to say to Bea Berman's comments about Mr. Scheer's work in that regard ?
Mr. Berecz. Mr. Ben Davis made the statement that — I don't know how that statement came about, but Mr. Ben Davis said that Mortimer Scheer misled the Negro people in this area, not helped them.
Mr. HiTZ. Did anyone of the Buffalo or Erie County group at this meeting have anything to say in criticism of their organizer or their chairman, Mr. Scheer?
Mr. Berecz. Well, there was only Marty Zelman that said anything about him or Anthony Massa, because those were the two guys that were opposing the rest of the group.
Mr. HiTZ. But did they say anything against him ?
Mr. Berecz. I don't recall right now, offhand, sir, what they said about him; they were discussing it, but I don't recall the discussion on it.
Mr. Pool. Counsel, did you establish an approximate day or date when this meeting took place?
Mr. HiTz. He established the date as in the month of October 1961 ; am I correct, Mr. Berecz?
Mr. Berecz. Yes, sir.
jSIr. HiTZ. What did Mr. Davis have to say after these members of the local group had spoken ?
Mr. Berecz. Well, he asked what they were going to do. Pie was proud of Mortimer Scheer, and he was the guy that helped him get his
Mr. HiTZ. You said Davis said he was proud of Mr. Scheer?
Mr. Berecz. Yes.
Mr. HiTz. Go ahead.
Mr. Berecz. But he was sorry that at this time, if they didn't fall in line, that he would have to expel the three of them, which was Mortimer Scheer, Ed Wolkenstein, and Walter Zvaleko.
Mr. HiTz. And what took place then ?
Mr. Berecz. He also invited the rest that if they wanted to leave with Scheer that they could leave.
Mr. HiTz. Wliat took place then ?
1548 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE BUFFALO, N.Y., AREA
Mr. Berecz, Well, there was most of the group, one with Mortimer Scheer which included Richard and Gertrude Alexander.
Mr, HiTz. Let me interrupt you just a moment. Do you recall the two Schwartzes, Mr. and Mrs. Schwartz, being present at the meetings ?
Mr. Berecz. No, sir.
Mr. HiTz. Do you remember whether or not Mr. Davis attempted to get the feeling and the views of the people present at the meeting as to whether or not Mr. Scheer and the other two should be expelled from the party ?
Mr. Berecz. Well, I more or less, I think he knew; the meeting went that they were sticking with Mortimer Scheer, that they would go with him, and I think that is the reason he made the statement if anybody wanted to leave with Mortimer Scheer, they could go with him.
Mr. HiTz. Did Mr. Davis propose a vote to the assembled company as to whether or not their expulsion of those three individuals should be carried ?
Mr. Berecz. Somebody else proposed it; not Mr. Davis, somebody else did. I don't recall who it was.
Mr. HiTz. "VVliat was the action on that proposal ?
Mr. Berecz. Well, if the action would have carried out, Mr. Scheer would have stayed on as organizer, but Mr. Davis did not go along with it.
Mr. HiTZ. Was there a meeting in the following month of November 1961, attended by a Communist Party official from New York City, that you attended ?
Mr. Berecz. Yes, sir.
Mr. HiTZ. Wlio was the official ?
Mr. Berecz. Louis Weinstock.
Mr. HiTz. IVhere was this meeting held ?
Mr. Berecz. It was held in Everett Jones' place on Merrimac Street, right across from the University of Buffalo.
Mr. HiTz. Wlio was present at that meeting ?
Mr. Berecz. Anthony Massa was there, Marty Zelman, and a fellow by the name of Michael Clune.
Mr. HiTz. What was the purpose of that meeting, Mr. Berecz?
Mr. Berecz. The purpose of the meeting was the McCarran Act, the registering of the Communist Party ; and they were on the dead- line. They did not have too much time to go. I think it was the following day that they had to register the Communist Party as foreign agents, and also the leaders of the Communist Party would have to register, so he talked on the McCarran Act and he gave the members of the party a resume of tliat decision that they made at the national committee, that they were not going to register. He stated that they had lawyers from all over the country and they were advised to register, as such, but the committee decided that they were not going to do this, and they were not going to register.
Mr. HiTz. Instead, what were they going to do ; did he say ?
Mr. Berecz. Well, instead, they were just going to let it go by. They were going to cut back the leadership to three — Elizabeth Flynn, Gus Hall, and Ben Davis, and he was on then as labor secretary of the Communist Party.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE BUFFALO, N.Y., AREA 1549
Mr. HiTZ. Was Mr. Davis present at the second meeting in Novem- ber of 1961?
Mr. Berecz. No, sir, just Louis Weinstock.
Mr. HiTZ. I want to take you baclv to the October meeting of 1961 that you have told us about, at which Ben Davis was present and also Mr. Weinstock ; am I correct ?
Mr. Berecz. Yes, sir.
Mr. HiTZ. Do you recall a remark made by someone present from the Erie County group which caused a response from Mr. Davis to the effect that, who would go to jail ?
Mr. Berecz. Well, nobody made the remark. He was asked a ques- tion on whose authority would he fire Mortimer Scheer and he said that, in case they did not comply with the law and it came that some- body would have to go to jail, it wouldn't be Mortimer Scheer who would go to jail, but it would be him, Gus Hall, Elizabeth Flynn, that would have to go to jail.
Mr. HiTz. Davis said that ?
Mr. Berecz. Yes, sir.
Mr. HiTz. To whom did he say that ?
Mr. Berecz. Well, he said it to the group.
Mr. HiTZ. Had Sclieer just said something that caused that remark from Mr. Davis ?
Mr. Berecz. Yes, sir.
Mr.HiTz. What was that?
Mr. Berecz. I don't recall the remark that he made to him.
Mr. HiTz. Did anyone present at this October 1961 meeting contest the right of Mr. Davis to write out of the Conmiunist Party the three individuals whom he had named as being ones who were working against the national policy ?
Mr. Berecz. Well, there was Gertrude Alexander who questioned Mr. Davis' authority.
Mr. HiTZ. Explain what was said that caused her to question the authority and what, in turn, was said back to her ?
Mr. Berecz. Well, there was quite a few things said. To begin with, she wanted to know why they couldn't wait so the Communist Party would have a conference or convention to get rid of Mortimer Scheer as an organizer in this area, and Mr. Davis made the statement on this that it might be a day, maybe a week, 1 year, maybe 5 years, or maybe never that they would have a convention, and that is why he is here to do this job, and he is going to do it.
Mr. HiTz. Do what job ?
Mr. Berecz. To expel Mortimer Scheer, because he works against the national committee.
Mr. HiTz. To that, did Gertrude Alexander have anything to say ; did she question Mr. Davis' authority to say what he had said and to do what he said he might do ?
Mr. Berecz. Well, she wanted to know on what authority he would do this, and Mr. Davis said he was the boss and he is going to do it, he was going to expel the three of them. He announced it at the meet- ing that they were expelled from the Communist Party.
Mr. HiTZ. And did he then make some remarks concerning Mr. Sporn and the two Alexanders ?
1550 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE BUFFALO, N.Y., AREA
Mr. Berecz. Well, he made the remark that if anybody wanted to leave, they can leave with Mortimer Scheer and Mr. Wolkenstein and Walter Zvaleko.
Mr. HiTz. You remained in the party after that in this area, sir?
Mr. Berecz. Yes, sir.
Mr. HiTz. Up to that time, v/ere you in any group in the Erie County party with Mr. Wolkenstein, Mr. Scheer, Mr. Zvaleko ?
Mr. Berecz. I was only in the Communist Party with them.
Mr. HiTz. Did any of those three again appear at a Communist Party meeting in this area ?
Mr. Berecz. Not to my knowledge, sir.
Mr. HiTZ. Did Mr. Sporn?
Mr. Berecz. Not to my knowledge ; I haven't seen him.
Mr. HiTZ. Mr. or Mrs. Alexander ?
Mr. Berecz. No, sir.
Mr. HiTz. Do you recall whether or not some months before the two meetings that you have told us about, in October or November of 1961, the Communist Party''- case had been considered and decided in the Supreme Court ; do you know what I mean by the Communist Party case ?
Mr. Berecz. Well, that was the case in front of the Subversive Board.
Mr. PIiTz. That is the one I am referring to. Are you aware of that case?
Mr. Berecz. Yes, sir.
Mr. HiTz. Had it been decided some time shortly before the two meetings in October of 1961 about which you have testified?
Mr. Berecz. Plow do you mean, sir, was it "decided" ?
Mr. HiTZ. Had there been a Court decision prior to the meeting of October 1961, in which registration of the party and the members of the party was discussed ?
Mr. Berecz. Yes, sir.
Mr. HiTZ. You told us that you joined the party in 1916 in this Buffalo area ; is that correct, sir ?
Mr. Berecz. Yes, sir.
Mr. HiTz. Do you recall in 1950 the Internal Security Act was passed ?
Mr. Berecz. Yes, sir.
Mr. HiTz. Do you remember that it was passed ?
Mr. Berecz. Yes, sir.
Mr. HiTz. What changes, if any, in the security measures taken by the members of the Communist Party took place after the passing of the Internal Security Act ?
Mr. Berecz. Oh, they more or less went underground and they stayed underground. They would only meet at certain places and not more than four at a time, or if there was any more than that, well, it was at a private home most of the time.
Mr. HiTz. In what fashion were the names of the members of the party recorded ?
Mr. Berecz. When you pay dues or something, you use numbers or they just use your nationality or how long you ha^ e been in the party or the union afliliations that you were tied up with.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE BUFFALO, N.Y., AREA 1551
Mr. HiTz. Are you familiar with the means by which the literature of the Communist Party was distributed in the Bullalo area while you were a member ?
Mr. Berecz. Yes, sir.
Mr. HiTz. How is it distributed t
Mr. Berecz. For the security of the party, they used, the paper used to come to one post office box and one person handled it, and it was taken to their clubs and, when the members got it, they put it in brown paper bags, and tliat is the way it got delivered.
Mr. HiTz. Is what you have said also applicable to the receipt in this area of the Daily Worker?
Mr. Berecz. Yes, sir.
Mr. HiTz. At that time ?
Mr. Berecz. Yes, sir.
Mr. HiTz. Who was in charge of the receipt of the literature within the Communist Party in the latter part of 1961 ?
]Mr. Berecz. I was told that Paul Sporn was the literature and edu- cational director of the Communist Party of Erie County.
Mr. HiTZ. And who was in charge of the receipt of the Communist Party literature in the area ?
Mr. Berecz. Mortimer Scheer.
Mr. HiTz. Was he in charge of that at the time of the meeting in October 19G1 at wdiich he was read out of the Communist Party by Mr. Davis?
Mr. Berecz. Up until that time, yes.
Mr. HiTz. And just exactly how did you receive that mail ?
Mr. Berecz. He had a post office box at the post office, and that's how he received it, and at this meeting, from then on, the Daily 'Worker and — and the following meeting which we had with Mr. Weinstock, it was stated how bad it was for Mortimer Scheer that he did not distribute the Daily Worker to the members of the party in this area when it was held in a post office box.
Mr. HiTz. Did he have a key to the box ?
Mr. Berecz. Mortimer Scheer did, yes.
Mr. HiTz. When he was expelled from the Communist Party, did he turn the key over to the party or any of its officials right away ?
Mr. Berecz. No, sir.
Mr. HiTz. What did that cause?
Mr. Berecz. Well, it caused a lot of disturbance, because the paper wasn't received then or the literature.
Mr. HiTZ. Did they finally get the key away from Mr, Scheer ?
Mr. Berecz. No, sir ; we gave up the mail box.
Mr. HiTz. What happened to ih& Daily Worker?
Mr. Berecz. I don't know what they did with it.
Mr. HiTz. Did it continue to arrive in this area ?
Mr. Berecz. After that, yes.
Mr. HiTZ. Do you recall the nam.es of any persons assigned to the youth work of the Communist Party in Erie County ?
Mr. Berecz. There was Mortimer Scheer assigned to it. He handled the youth, and Anthony Massa handled it for a while. There were different people assigned to that group of work.
Mr. HiTz. At tlie time that you left the party in 1962, were you aware of the strategy of the party with i-espect to assignments within the youth movement ?
1552 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE BUFFALO, N.Y., AREA
Mr. Berecz. Well, they talked about it, but it's never gotten any- place, never got off the ground.
Mr. HiTZ. Wlien you left, were you aware of any efforts to teach among the youth Marxist-Leninist principles ?
Mr. Berecz. Yes, sir ; that was the idea, to get into the youth group and try, not right away — work yourself in and try to teach Marxist- Leninist ideas to them.
Mr. HiTz. Did they make any efforts to accomplish this in the latter part of the time that you were a member ?
Mr. Berecz. They tried several times, sir.
Mr. HiTZ. In what way ?
Mr. Berecz. Well, trying to get into different organizations like the peace movement, fair housing, racial matters; they tried to get into all these organizations. They claimed to help, but their idea was to get in there and then advocate the communistic ideas.
Mr. Hjtz. Were you familiar in the party, in the latter part of your membership in the party, with the way in which the party sought to handle the matter of disarmament ?
Mr. Berecz. They had a coimnittee on it, that tliey should stop nuclear bomb tests, and different things like that. They had a com- mittee working.
Mr. HiTz. Do you recall Mr. Weinstock from New York City speak- ing to the Communist Party members of this area on that subject?
Mr. Berecz. I don't recall about it, sir.
Mr. HiTz. What efforts did the Commmiist Party in this area en- deavor to take with regard to nuclear testing ?
Mr. Berecz. Well, they also had a committee which consisted of Gertrude Alexander and Eichard Alexander and Abe Copperman and Ann Copperman. Ann Copperman and Abe Copperman lived in what they called the Sheridan project, and they were passing out leaflets and they were pressing them on just when Russia exploded a 50-megaton bomb. And they got kind of peeved that they were passing out leaflets to stop it, and Russia went ahead and exploded the bomb. And from that time on, they weren't such good members of the Connnunist Party. They said that Khrushchev hollered to stop it and then he went ahead when the United States stopped it, and then he went ahead and exploded it, and they claimed, they claimed he was untrustable.
Mr.HiTZ. Who said that?
Mr. Berecz. Abe Copperman and Ann Copperman, and they wanted to know from Mr. Massa, why did he do that ; and Massa answered him that he couldn't give him an answer that day, but he will give it whenever they get in touch with somebody from New York, and they will tell us. So a couple of weeks later, he [Massa] told us that Khru- shchev said that the free nations were against him and that they were doing it in secret and that is why he had to test the 50-megaton bomb.
Mr. HiTZ. Were any members of the Communist Party in Erie County assigned to work with the Women Strike for Peace?
Mr. Berecz. Yes, they were.
Mr. HiTz. And the Women's International League for [Peace and] Freedom ?
Mr. Berecz. Yes, sir. They were in that grou]).
Mr. HiTz. Who were assigned to assist in that work ?
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES EST THE BUFFALO, N.Y., AREA 1553
Mr. Berecz. To my recollection, Bea Berman, Rose Touralchuk, Mrs. Zelman, old Mrs. Zelman — I do not know her first name.
Mr. HiTz. The senior Mrs. Zelman ?
Mr. Berecz. Yes, sir.
Mr. HiTZ. Was Gertrude Alexander engaged in that work ?
Mr. Berecz. Yes, sir.
Mr. HiTZ. Did the Erie County Communist Party assume any at- titude with respect to the Vietnam and Cuba problems ?
Mr. Berecz. Well, they just advocated giving a free hand to Cuba, that they are doing the right thing, and that the United States should not interfere with them at all.
Mr. HiTz. And as to Vietnam ?
Mr. Berecz. Well, I don't know too much about that.
Mr. HiTz. Mr, Berecz, did you ever find yourself at a meeting of a group of the Erie County Communist Party at which you were the only man ?
Mr. Berecz. Yes, sir.
Mr. HiTz. How did that come about and where did it happen ?
Mr. Berecz. Well, I was assigned to the Tonawanda Club, and at the time that the meeting was held
Mr. HiTz. Slow down, please. At the Tonawanda Club ?
Mr. Berecz. Yes, sir. And Mrs. Massa told me about — Gloria Massa told me about the meeting and asked me if I wanted to go, and I said, "Yes," and we went to Joe Pranis' home off Sheridan Drive some place; I don't Imow the street, and there was a meeting held there for the Tonawanda Club, and I was the only male person at the place at the time.
Mr. Hjtz. Wlio presided ?
Mr. Berecz. Mrs. Massa.
Mr. HiTz. How many ladies were present ?
Mr. Berecz. I believe there were four or five.
Mr. HiTz. Was Helen Schwartz there ?
Mr. Berecz. Yes, sir.
Mr. HiTZ. Was she the wife of Tobias Schwartz, also known as Ted Schwartz ?
Mr. Berecz, Well, I only know him as Schwartz, that's the only way I know him.
Mr. HiTz, Was Mr. Pranis at home that evening ?
Mr. Berecz. No, sir.
Mr. HiTz. Wliere was he ?
Mr. Berecz. Working.
Mr. Hrrz. Wliere?
Mr. Berecz. At the General Motors Chevy Plant.
Mr. HiTZ. Was there a discussion held at that time as to the assign- ment within the party
Mr. Berecz. Yes, sir.
Mr. HiTz. — of Helen Schwartz ?
Mr. Berecz. Yes, sir.
Mr. HiTz. Who said it and what was said ?
Mr. Berecz. Mrs. Massa told her that she would have to go into the Professional Club, what they called a Professional Club of the Com- munist Party, and she stated that she did not want to go in there be-
1554 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE BUFFALO, N.Y., AREA
cause her husband was in there already and sh.e did not want to be in the same chib with her husband.
Mr. HiTz. Do you know, Mr. Berecz, what caused Mr. Schwartz to be in the Professional Club ?
Mr. Berecz. No, sir.
Mr. HiTZ. Mr. Berecz, do you know Vvhat group Helen Schwartz was assigned to ?
Mr. Berecz. No, sir.
Mr. HiTz. Do you know whether or not she was assigned to the Professional Club ?
Mr. Berecz. I don't know what happened to her after that.
Mr. HiTZ. Thank you, sir.
Mr. Chairman, I think this would be an appropriate time to break, as you had asked me to suggest to you.
Mr. Pool. The committee will stand in recess until 2 o'clock.
( Wliereupon, at 12 :30 p.m., Wednesday, April 29, 1964, the subcom- mittee recessed, to reconvene at 2 p.m. the same day.)
AFTERNOON SESSION— WEDNESDAY, APRIL 29, 1964
(The subcommittee reconvened at 2 p.m., Hon. Joe R. Pool, chairman of the subcommittee, presiding) .
(Subcommittee members present: Eepresentatives Pool, Johansen, Ichord, and Ashbrook. )
Mr. Pool. The subconnnittee will be in order.
Mr. Berecz, you are still under oath and counsel will proceed with questions,
TESTIMONY OF ANDEEW J. BEBECZ— Sesiimed
Mr. HiTz. Mr. Berecz, you testified before the Imicheon recess that you attended a Communist Party meeting of the Erie County branch in October of 1961, attended by Mr. Davis of the party, coming from New York, and also jMr. Weinstock, and that certain things occurred there resulting in Mr. Scheer's, l^Ir. Wolkonstein's, and Mr. Zvaleko's expulsion from the party and certain other ones whom you named being told that if they did not like the expulsion of the others, they could leave, too. You also mentioned a number of others who were present at that time, at that meeting and, as to some of them, what they said that you could recall. Among those persons, you named Bea and Max Berman, Marty and Dottie Zelman, Tony and Gloria Massa, Sy Rudner, and some others, including a m.an named Paul Sporn. Do you recall that testimony this morning ?
Mr. Berecz. Yes, sir.
Mr. HiTZ. Is that the last time you were at any Communist meeting that you saw Paul Sporn ?
Mr. Berecz. Yes, sir.
Mr. HiTZ. Yfould you tell us whether you had ever seen him before at a Communist Party m.eeting ?
Mr. Berecz. I had one occasion to see him where he was pointed out to me. I did not know Mr. Sporn up to that time. Mr. Tony Massa pointed him out to me.
COM^SIUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE BUFFALO, N.Y., AREA 1555
Mr. IIiTz. Just a moment. Let's try and place this in time. How much before the October 19G1 meeting was it that you saw Mr. Sporn for the tirst time?
Mr. Berecz. Just a couple of weeks.
Mr. HiTZ. What sort of a gathering was it ?
Mr. Berecz. Well, it was on the same question, the Communist Party had troubles.
Mr. HiTz. What kind of a gathering was it ; who was there ?
Mr. Berecz. Well, party members.
Mr. IIiTZ. Was it a closed party meeting ?
Mr. Berecz. Yes, sir.
Mr. HiTz. Tell us who was there and where it was.
]Mr. Berecz. It was at Levine's, Louis Levine's house on Grant Street some place.
Mr. IIiTz. L-e-v-i-n-e ?
Mr. Berecz. Yes, sir.
Mr. HiTz. Can you name some of those who were there ?
Mr. Berecz. Well, I remember Mr. Massa being there with me, be- cause he Vv-as with nxe, and Mr. Zelman was there. I don't recall some of them.
Mr. HiTz. With whom did you go to this meeting?
Mr. Berecz. With Mr. Massa.
Mr. HiTz. Tony Massa ?
Mr. Berecz. Yes, sir.
Mr. HiTz. Who was head of the party in the Erie County area at that time ?
Mr. Berecz. Who was what, sir?
Mr. HiTz. The head of the party.
Mr. Berecz. Mortimer Scheer.
Mr. HiTZ. Was he there ?
Mr. Berecz. Yes, sir.
Mr. HiTz. Will you name others whom you may recall as being there?
Mr. Bepxcz. I don't recall any more names.
Mr. HiTz. Was Mr. Sporn there ?
Mr . B ere c z . Yes , s i r .
Mr. HiTz. You have already said that when you next before— and the only other time was the October meeting, that you ever did see him ; is that right ?
Mr. Berecz. Eight.
Mr. HiTz. What was discussed at the meeting ?
Mr. Berecz. I don't recall really what it actually was, but it was the future of the Communist Party in this area.
Mr. Ilrrz. Was anything discussed with reference to the party policy that you all understood was being made in New York City?
Mr. Berecz. Yes, sir, that was on the same project.
]Mr. HiTz. That there was a conflict between the policy here and the policy of the national committee?
Mr. Berecz. Yes, sir.
Mr. HiTZ. And New York City ?
Mr. Berecz. Yes, sir.
1556 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE BUFFALO, N.Y., AREA
Mr. HiTZ. Was that discussion on the same subject that resulted later, in October 1961, in the expulsion of Mr. Scheer, Mr. Wolken- stein, and Mr. Zvaleko ?
Mr. Berecz. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hrrz. Was any attack made upon Mr. Scheer and his policy in the Erie County branch ?
Mr. Berecz. Not that I recall, sir.
Mr. HiTz. Was any defense made of his policy ?
Mr. Berecz. Well, they are always defending his policy in this area.
Mr. HiTZ. I see. And you say Tony Massa pointed him out to you?
Mr. Berecz. Yes, because I did not know Mr. Sporn. I heard about Mr. Sporn, so I asked — I did not know him, and Tony Massa showed me who he was.
Mr. HiTZ. In what fashion was Mr. Sporn pointed out to you ; by that I mean, what caused the designation of Mr. Sporn in the conversa- tion you had with Mr. Massa ?
Mr. Berecz. Well, being a literature director and educational di- rector of the party here, I heard members talking about him, so I asked who he was. I did not know the man personally, so I asked for him to be pointed out to me.
Mr. HiTz. You asked that of whom ?
Mr. Berecz. Mr. Massa.
Mr. HiTZ. What did he say ?
Mr. Berecz. He pointed him out to me.
Mr. HiTz. Getting on to a slightly different subject, you have told us about the expulsion of Mr. Scheer from the party at this October expulsion meeting in 1961. "V\nio succeeded in the operation of the party in the Erie County branch after that ?
Mr. Berecz. Mr, Davis appointed Tony Massa, Marty Zelman, Sy Rudner, and Hattie Lumpkin, and I don't recall the rest who was there.
Mr. HiTZ. Did you mention Marty Zelman ?
Mr. Berecz. Yes, sir.
Mr. HiTz. Did Hattie Lumpkin accept the nomination as one of the officers in the area ?
Mr. Berecz. No, she did not.
Mr. HiTz. Was this designation of these three or more persons — there were three, were there not — designations made by Mr. Davis?
Mr. Berecz. Four, to my knowledge.
Mr. HiTz. To run the party in Erie County ?
Mr. Berecz. Yes, sir.
Mr. HiTZ. Was this a new concept of management of the branch from what it had been before ?
Mr. Berecz. Yes, sir.
Mr. HiTz. Before that, it had been an organization operated and run by
Mr. Berecz. Scheer, and then the secretariat was formed with four people.
Mr. HiTz. Repeat the last.
Mr. Berecz. The four people would be the head of the party, and they would be running the policy of the party in the Erie County area.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE BUFFALO, N.Y., AREA 1557
Mr. HiTZ. Prior to that, there had been a single chairman ; had there not?
Mr. Berecz. Yes, sir.
Mr. HiTZ. And that was Scheer, immediately preceding these four?
Mr. Berecz. Yes.
Mr. HiTZ. Up until the time that you left the party in 1962, was this group of persons running the party in the Erie County branch ?
Mr. Berecz. Well, there were some changes made when Mr. Patter- son came down here from New York, and he took Anthony Massa out of the secretariat, because the national committee thought that Tony Massa was antagonistic with some of the members and they were los- ing some members, so they said, "Take him off from the secretariat," and they replaced him with somebody else.
Mr. HiTZ. Do you know what Mr. Patterson's position in the party wn sat that time?
Mr. Berecz. I know that he was a secretary of New York State.
Mr. HiTz. Do you know whether he held a national office in the Communist Party ?
Mr. Berecz. Well, I think that was the New York State secretary.
Mr. HiTZ. I see. Just one question. I have to go back. You men- tioned that the Industrial Club to which you belonged in 1946 until about 1958 or '59 finally had a reduced membership prior to your being assigned to the Tonawanda neighborhood club; am I correct in that?
Mr. Berecz. Yes, sir.
Mr. HiTZ. What was the greatest number of members that the In- dustrial Club had while you were a member ?
Mr. Berecz. About 20 people.
Mr. HiTz. Can you tell us what caused the reduction in its member- ship that resulted in the change in policy to neighborhood clubs ?
Mr. Berecz. Well, that was the change of policy of the party, when the party was under attack, so they were doing away with big clubs, they were forming the community clubs.
Mr. HiTz. In 1957, Mr. Berecz, were you named as a member of the Communist Party in the Erie County branch, in a hearing before the Un-American Activities Committee right here in Buffalo ?
Mr. Berecz. Yes, sir.
Mr. HiTz. Wlio identified you in 1957 as a member of the party ?
Mr. Berecz. Mr. Charles Regan.
Mr. Hrrz. R-e-g-a-n ?
Mr. Berecz. Yes, sir.
Mr. HiTZ. Is that a public hearing, public testimony ?
Mr. Berecz. Yes, sir.
Mr. HiTz. Was that the first public identification as a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Berecz. Publicly ; yes, sir.
Mr. HiTz. Were you an ideological member of the Communist Party at the time ; do you know what I mean ?
Mr. Berecz. No, sir, I never was, and that is, I never was an idealist.
Mr. HiTZ. I asked you, Do you know what I mean by an ideological member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Berecz. Yes, I know.
1558 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE BUFFALO, N.Y., AREA
Mr, HiTz. You were, up to tliat time, in the Communist Party arf a member at the request of the Federal Bureau of Investigation ?
Mr. Berecz. Yes, sir.
Mr. HiTZ. At this time, I am speaking now of 1957 when you were identified, and by the way, can you give us the month of the year?
Mr. Beekcz. October or September ; one of tliose months.
Mr. Hrrz. Late in the year ?
Mr. Berecz. Yes, sir.
Mr. HiTz. Were you doing any community work wholly apart from your Communist Party work at this time?
Mr. Berecz. You mean on my own ?
Mr. Hrrz. Yes, sir.
Mr. Berecz. Yes, sir.
Mr. HiTZ. Were you a Scoutmaster for the Boy Scouts ?
Mr. Berecz. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hrrz. How long had you been in 195T ?
Mr. Berecz. I took the group in 1957 and I was in it until 1962.
Mr. HiTZ. Were you active in your church work ?
Mr. Berecz. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hrrz. After you were publicly identified as a member of the Communist Party, did you make any effort to square yourself with those you knew or who knew you, to the extent that you stated to anyone that you were not a member of the Communist Party ideologi- cally, but that you were working in the Conniiunist Party for the Fed- eral Bureau of Investigation and for your country ?
Mr. Berecz. I did not go into why I was working. I went to the priest and told him, as a Catholic, I told them that I wasn't a Com- munist, that I was doing a job and maybe in a year's time, I could tell them. At that time, I could give them no more information, and I did not.
Mr. HiTz. Did you do anything with respect to remaining as a Scout- master in your community after your public identification?
Mr. Berecz. Well, I offered to resign, and they told me I shouldn't resign, but I should stay on as Scoutmaster.
Mr. HiTZ. A]id did you stay on ?
Mr. Berecz. Yes, sir.
Mr. HiTZ. Mr. Berecz, do you have children ?
Mr. Berkcz. Yes, sir.
Mr. Httz. How many do you have ?
Mr. Berecz. Two boys.
Mr. HiTz. How old are they ?
Mr. Berecz. One is 23 and one is 18.
Mr. HiTz. Do they go to school in this area ?
Mr. Berecz. Yes.
Mr. Hrrz. Where do they go ?
Mr. Berecz. One goes to State Teachers College and one goes to Niagara Falls to Community College.
Mr. HiTZ. Did one of them go to the University of Buffalo until recently ?
Mr. Berecz. He Avas there for a half year.
Mr. Hnz. At the time in 1957 when you were identified publicly as a member of the Communist Party, did you inform your children that
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE BUFFALO, N.Y., AREA 1559
you had been in the party only at the request of the Federal Bureau of Investigation ? Mr. Berecz. Yes, sir. Mr. PIiTZ. You told your children ? Mr. Berecz. Yes, sir. Mr. HiTz. Did you tell your wife ? Mr. Berecz. Yes, sir. Mr. HiTz. She knew it before ?
Mr. Berecz. My wife knew it right from the beginning. Mr. HiTz. Did you tell anyone else ? Mr. Berecz. No, sir.
Mr. Hrrz. Did you ever suffer any hardship or problems as the result of the public identification and your failure or refusal to make known that you were working for the FBI when you were doing this? Mr. Berecz. Yes, sir.
Mr. HiTZ. What were the problems that arose in that regard ? Mr. Berecz. From neighbors and from other people, as they thought I was actually belonging to the Communist Party, and they were kind of hard on us, thinking that we were actually Communists. Mr. Hrrz. How long did you remain in that situation, that is, not divulging publicly that your membership in the Communist Party was at the request of the Federal Bureau of Investigation? Mr. Berecz. Pardon?
Mr. HiTz. How long did you remain in that situation, not telling people that your membership in the Communist Party was at the request of the FBI ?
Mr. Berecz. Right from 1042 to 1962.
Mr. HiTZ. I am sorry. I did not make myself clear. You were identified in 1957 ; right ? Mr. Berecz. Right.
Mr. Hrrz. You did not make known, except to your wife who al- ready knew and your children whom you then told, that you were a member of the Communist Party working for the FBI ; right ? Mr. Berecz. Right. Mr. HiTz. You told no one else ? Mr. Berecz. No one else.
Mr. PIrrz. And by the way, when you spoke to your priest, did you tell him that you were working for the FBI ? Mr. Berecz. No, sir.
Mr. HiTz. Only that you would tell him later what the situation really was ?
Mr. Berecz. Yes, sir. Mr. HiTz. How long did that persist ? Mr. Berecz. Five years. Mr. HiTZ. What took place 5 years after ?
Mr. Berecz. I was called to testify in front of the Subversive Board in New York City.
Mr. HiTz. Is that the Subversive Activities Control Board ?
Mr. Berecz. Yes, sir.
Mr. HiTZ. A Federal board having to do with inte; iial secirity ?
Mr. Berecz. Yes, sir.
Mr. HiTz. And created by the act ?
Mr. Berecz. Yes, sir.
36-414—64 4
1560 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE BUFFALO, N.Y., AREA
Mr. HiTZ. When did you first testify before the Board ?
Mr.BERECz. 1962, October the 5th.
Mr. HiTz. Did you testify in three proceedings before the Board, one of them concerning when you testified about Betty Gannett, Louis Wein stock?
Mr. Pool. Counsel, he testified in 1962 or '63 ?
Mr. Hrrz. You said in 1962 you testified on tliree occasions before the Subversive Activities Control Board, in the third case, involving William Patterson ; is that correct ?
Mr. Berecz. Patterson, the first case, Betty Gannett and Weinstock.
Mr. HiTz. In that order ?
Mr. Berecz. Yes, sir.
Mr.HiTz. All in 1962?
Mr. Berecz. Yes, sir.
Mr. HiTz. At that time, were they public hearings, sir ?
Mr. Berecz. Yes, sir.
Mr. HiTz. Were they proceedings that were brought by the Attorney General, again before the S ACB ?
Mr. Berecz. Yes, sir.
Mr. HiTz. They were public hearings ?
Mr. Berecz. Yes, sir.
Mr. HiTz. Was it brought out then that your membership in the Communist Party from 1946 until that time was at the request of the Federal Bureau of Investigation ?
Mr. Berecz. Yes, sir.
Mr. HiTz. Is that the first time that that was publicly disclosed ?
Mr. Berecz. Yes, sir.
Mr. HiTz. For 5 years ?
Mr. Berecz. Yes, sir.
Mr. liiTz. And thus, you remained a member of the party in such a situation until what day and what year?
Mr. Berecz. In '62, October the 5th; my party membership was severed when I testified the first day.
Mr. HiTz. On the witness stand?
Mr. Berecz. Yes, sir.
Mr. IIiTz. You say that you ran into some problems when it was made known that you were a member of the Communist Party. Did you suffer any unfortunate situations or run into any problems after it was divulged that you had been in the Communist Party but that you were working for the Federal Bureau of Investigation ?
Mr. Berecz. Well, I got some telephone calls and some letters sent to me that aren't worth mentioning, but outside of that there was nothing else.
Mr. HiTz. What did the telephone calls and the letters call you and say that you were ?
Mr. Berecz. They called me Judas and everything else, all kinds of names.
Mr. HiTz. Thank you very much, Mr. Berecz. I have no further questions.
It may be that the chairman of the subcommittee has some questions.
Mr. icHORD. Mr. Chairman, I have one or two questions. Mr. Berecz, this meeting in October of 1961 was where Mortimer Scheer
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE BUFFALO, N.Y., AREA 1561
appeared, and did I understand you to say that it was the October meeting that Paul Sporn was present?
Mr. Berecz. Yes, sir.
Mr. IcHORD. And he did speak at that meeting ?
Mr. Berecz. Yes, sir.
Mr. IcHORD. Now, it was brought out in the testimony that Charles Regan identified you as a member of the Communist Party before this committee in 1957. Who was Charles Regan ?
Mr. Berecz. Charles Regan was also an undercover agent for the FBI.
Mr. IcHORD. That is all I have at this time.
Mr. JoiiANSEN. This meeting, was this a closed party meeting?
Mr. Berecz. Yes, sir.
Mr. JoHANSEN. That is all I have.
Mr. AsHBROOK. You were associated with one labor organization. Did you, under oath, say you were associated or not associated with the Progressive Labor Movement in any way ?
Mr. Berecz. That I was associated with the union ?
Mr. AsHBRooK. Workingmen's organization within the Communist Party, and I wondered if you were at any time, during any of this time you were undercover agent for the FBI, associated with the Progressive Labor Movement ?
Mr. Berecz. No, sir.
Mr. IcHORD. Mr. Chairman, I do have one or two more questions. Mr. Berecz, how old were you when you came to the United States?
Mr. Berecz. Seventeen, sir.
Mr. IcHORD. And did you go to work for American Radiator Com- pany at that time ?
Mr. Berecz. When I was 19 years old, I went to work for them.
Mr. IcHORD. Are you a member of the union at the present time?
Mr. Berecz. Yes, sir.
Mr. IcHORD. What is your trade, sir ? What do you do at American Radiator ?
Mr. Berecz. I am called a tester and a chipper. Like the radiators that you have in the house, you test them with water and air.
Mr. IcHORD. You work on an assembly line ?
Mr. Berecz. Yes, sir.
Mr. IcHORD. And you are a dues-paying member of the CIO ?
Mr. Berecz. Yes, sir, Local 1199.
Mr. IcHORD. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Pool. I want to make a statement here at this time.
Mr. HiTz. Mr. Chairman, may I interrupt? I have one question.
Mr. Pool. Go right ahead.
Mr. HiTz. Mr. Berecz, at the time that you were in the Communist Party working as you have indicated for the Federal Bureau of In- vestigation, did you know Charles Regan ?
Mr. Berecz. I know him from the Communist Party ; yes, sir.
Mr. HiTZ. Did you know him at that time as one also working for the Federal Bureau of Investigation ?
Mr. Berecz. No, sir.
Mr. HiTz. That is all, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Pool. Mr. Berecz, I want to say this to you — Mr. Berecz, be- fore you leave the witness stand, I wish to express to you not only
1562 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE BUFFALO, N.Y., AREA
my own deep personal thanks and appreciation for the service you have rendered, but also the appreciation of all members of the Com- mittee on Un-American Activities. I believe I can go further than that and say that I can express to you the gratitude, thanks, and appreciation of all but a tiny minority of the people of this country — and you know well who that tiny minority is and why it would never thank anyone for a patriotic service.
You, of course, have been and will be called all kinds of names. You have been and will be attacked and vilified by certain people. I hope that this does not bother you in the least and that, on the contrary, you accept it proudly as a badge of honor.
You have already — and with gross unfairness — been called a "paid informer." Traditionally, the word "informer" has connoted a squealer or a low, despicable person who betrays — to their oppressors — good, decent, and brave people who are fighting for liberty and freedom for themselves and all others victimized by their oppressors. Your role has been the very opposite of that. You have been working for all the good and decent people of this country. To save them and this Nation from the criminal conspirators who would oppress them and destroy this, the greatest of democracies, you have — at great risk and hardship to yourself — supplied important intelligence information to a duly constituted security agency of your country.
For this, you deserve only praise. "Y ou came to this country in 1929 at the age of 15. You have lived in this coimtry for 35 vears and vou have spent 20 of them — most of them and most of your adult life — giving to your adopted land, sacrificing for its people in this very special way.
One fact is clear in my mind — and, I am sure, clear in the minds of practically everyone in this room and in this city. And that is that you are far superior to, and have done far more for your country, far more for freedom and decency, than any of your detractors have ever done or will do. I say this despite the positions of prestige and influence held by some of them and the holier-than-thou postures they adopt.
I know you have been hurt by the service you have performed. Your wife has been hurt ; your children have been hurt. From 1957 to 1962 — from the time you were publicly identified as a Communist imtil you testified before the Subversive Activities Control Board — most people in this connnunity — good Americans too — doubted your loj^altj^ or con- sidered you a traitor. Now that your full story has been told before the Subversive Activities Control Board and here, the appreciation of 3^our fellow countrymen will, I believe, erase the bitter memories of those past years.
It is my sincere hope that for the remainder of your life you will enjoy the rewards, the honor, and the gratitude of the American people, which you deserve for a job so well done.
Witness excused.
[Applause.]
Mr. Pool. We are not going to have any further demonstrations. Mr. Marshal, if I have any further disturbances, you have your direction.
Mr. Gibson. Mr. Chairman, I would like to renew my request.
Mr. Pool. Yo li are not recojniizcd.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE BUFFALO, N.Y., AREA 1563
Mr. GiBSOx. Earlier, you said I could. My witness' name was men- tioned by this witness.
Mr. Pool. ]Mr. Counsel, call the next witness.
Mr. HiTZ. We would now like to call Mr. Paul Sporn. I ask him to step to the stand.
TESTIMOITY OF PAUL SPOEK, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL, lEA GOLLOBIN
Mr. Pool. ]Mr. Sporn 's request to use the tape recorder in the court- room is relayed to me through counsel. The request is denied. The official reporter is the court reporter who takes it on the stenotype, and that is the practice of the committee, and we are going to ask you to remove the recorder. Remove the recorder and take it out of the room.
Mr. SroRKT. May I state the reason why I wanted the recorder ?
Mr. Pool. Talk later on it.
Mr. GoLLOBiN. I have the right to make my request in person, not having it relayed through counsel, and I ask for the record to show that a request is made then for this recorder, which is not an outside instrument, to peraiit the witness to have a record of what is said and have it immediately available for him. I submit that this is a part of having a fair hearing in due process of law and in no way conflicts with the rules of this committee and as part of having a public hearing rather than a secret hearing.
A Voice. That recorder is personal property. It has no right to be taken away.
Mr. Pool. Marshal, if that man is not subpenaed, send him out of the room.
A Voice. I am subpenaed.
Mr. Pool. Escort him into other quarters.
Mr. GoLLOBiN. Am I to understand that it is not to be returned?
A Voice. I am here at your request, not mine.
Mr. Pool. Take him to another room.
A Voice. How can I possibly testify if I cannot hear the testimony of the other witnesses ?
Mr. Pool. You will have to keep quiet.
Mr. GoLLOBiN. May I have the return of the property? We will take it out of here, of course, but it belongs to an individual. It is not the property of the committee.
Mr. Pool. It will be returned, certainly.
Mr. Sporn. May I state the reasons why I brought that tape recorder ?
Mr. Pool. Let's have your witness identified.
Mr. HiTZ. Your Honor, I suggest that he be sworn and, within reason and a brief statement, I suggest that he be heard on this matter.
Mr. Pool. All right. May the witness stand.
Mr. Sporn. Before I am sworn, I would also like to make a motion to this committee on which I want a ruling.
Mr. Pool. Counsel
Mr. Sporn. The reason I asked for this motion to be made before I am sworn is that it is a motion contesting the legality of these hear-
1564 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE BUFFALO, N.Y., AREA
ings, and if the motion is approved, then the swearing process is un- necessary.
Mr. Pool. Mr. Spom, you may make your brief statement before you are sworn.
Mr. Sporn. I would like to dispute
Mr. Pool. Argue, Mr. Spom ?
Mr. Sporn. I shall answer that question at the proper time, but I will give one of the gentlemen to the right of me my subpena.
Mr. HiTZ. Mr. Chairman, as counsel, I suggest that no one — even in the witness chair as Mr. Sporn is now seated, and I understand it is because I have called him as our next witness, and I ask that he seat himself in the witness chair — that no one be permitted to make a statement either before or after he is sworn unless we know who is making the statement. The individual who is in the chair I think should identify himself by name before he is permitted to speak.
Mr. Pool. That is what I asked him to do.
Mr. Sporn. My name is Mr. Sporn, but I want to make this motion on the legality of these hearings.
Mr. Pool. State your full name; that is what we want to find out first.
Mr. Sporn. My name is Paul Sporn.
Mr. Pool. Proceed and make your statement.
Mr. Sporn. The motion I am going to make, I contest the legality of these hearings for several reasons. The first is that Congress has no right to make legislation limiting freedom of speech or peaceable assembly, and as a consequence, this committee has no right to investi- gate in that area. That is my first reason.
My second reason is that there are members of this conunittee who are illegally in Congress, in violation of the 14th amendment, members from States which prohibit American citizens from voting. The fact of the matter is that the chairman of the committee, Mr. Willis
Mr. HiTZ. Excuse me, Mr. Chairman. I suggested that the only permission that he has to make a statement at this time is one of a brief and temperate statement of legal objection and that it shall not and cannot be argued to the committee.
Mr. Sporn. My statement will be temperate.
Mr. Pool. Listen to me just a minute.
Mr. HiTZ. I suggest to the chairman that he is arguing the legal point rather than stating it. I do not feel that he is entitled to argue his legal point.
Mr. Sporn. I would like, Mr. Pool, to make an informed point and that is why I am providing some reasons for it.
Mr. Pool. State your point and let's get on.
Mr. Sporn. I am stating it. There are members of this committee who are in Congress illegally because they come from States which prohibit citizens of this country from voting. The chairman of the committee
Mr. Pool. We have heard that before. If you have another point, go ahead and make it.
Mr. Sporn. Some members of the committee come from States in which only one third of the Negroes in their area are permitted to vote. There, in fact, is one member of the committee who comes from a State in which less than, in some districts, less than one percent of
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE BUFFALO, N.Y., AREA 1565
the Negroes living there are permitted to vote. These members are illegal members of Congress. The Supreme Court has recently ruled on a series of cases, a scries of cases on representation, and as I say, these members are illegally in Congress and, therefore, this committee is illegally constituted for that reason also. That is my second reason.
My third reason is that tliis committee in its investigation attempts to conduct itself as if this were a courtroom and as if criminal and illegal actions have been undertaken. If this is so, then under the sixth amendment, I have a right to a speedy trial and to be able to confront the people who are making the accusations through direct examination, cross-examination. This right is not being provided to me and, therefore, this committee is sitting illegally here today. That is my third reason.
This is an illegal hearing also, because this is not a public hearing. At the beginning of this hearing, the request was made of the mem- bers of the committee present here today to move to a larger room. This request was denied. Tickets have been issued. No announce- ment was made that tickets would be issued to enter this room. This committee tries to create the illusion that there are people running away from it. If people are running away from it, who are they ? I want a larger room. I want more of the public in here. I hope you do too, and until you give in to this request, this is a fourth reason why this committee sits illegally.
There is another reason why this committee is sitting illegally. There were two gentlemen, whom I shall not name because I am not going to name any names here today, handed me my subpena, and I asked them if the committee had a specific subject for this hearing. They told me that the committee had passed a proposal, but tliat they were not free to divulge the nature of that proposal to me. That reso- lution, in fact, was not read until this morning. In other words, the committee was not interested in having me come here thoroughly pre- pared for the purposes of this committee. They were merely willing to have me come here so that my name might be smeared. You are not at all interested in hearing what my views are. You are not at all willing to hear whether I am opposed to discrimination, that I am opposed to it.
Mr. HiTz. Mr. Chairman, I suggest that he is no longer making a legal point. I think he is arguing and haranguing with the committee. I think it can be cut off and should be cut off.
Mr. Pool. Do you have any other points ?
Mr. Sporn. The other reason why this committee is sitting illegally is that it violates the 10th amendment of the Constitution which reads, if I may read it to you— that's the 9th amendment. "The enumera- tion in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people." This committee denies me the right, my human right to dignity and to my own private beliefs, and, therefore, this committee also sits illegally for that reason.
It is also in violation of article X of the Bill of Rights.
Mr. Pool. We have heard your objections and your objections are overruled and denied.
ISIr. Sporn. I anticipated that answer.
Mr. Pool. If you will stand, I will swear you in.
1566 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE BUFFALO, N.Y., AREA
Mr. Sporx. Before I am svvorii, I would, like to make one other request of the committee.
Mr. Pool. You stand up and be sworn. "We have heard a lot from you. We are ready to swear you in.
Mr. Sporn. I would like to know if this table is bugged ?
Mr. Pool. I direct you to stand up and be sworn in.
Mr. GoLLOBiN. I think the witness has a right to have that question answered. This happened, according to the record, in 1957, and I assume it is a reasonable request; since you have excluded the tape recorder, he is entitled to know whether there is any other device, especially whether it may interfere with a client- attorney relation- ship.
Mr. Sporn. In 1957, it is recorded that this table was bugged.
Mr. Pool. You can investigate the table. You have 30 seconds to do so, and then I want to swear you in.
Mr. Sporn. I don't think I am as familiar with the electronic de- vices for bugging as some of the other gentlemen in this room. May we have an expert do the examination ?
Mr. Pool. Will you stand up and be sworn ?
Mr. GoLLOBiN. We at this time wish to examine the table as you said we might do.
Mr. Pool. Go right ahead.
All right. Stand and be sworn. Hold your right hand up. Do you solenmly swear that the testimony you are about to give this committee will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Sporn. I do.
Mr. HiTz. Mr. Chairman, in view of the statements that were made by an individual in this courtroom a few moments ago, once a few moments ago in the courtroom and once this morning earlier, the in- dividual being Mr. Will Gibson, who has been identified to me as a lawyer, member of tlie bar of Buffalo, and also as the attorney for Mr. Zelman and Mr. Berman, both of whom have been subpenaed as witnesses before this committee, in which this morning Mr. Gibson endeavored to make some objections and made a statement to the com- mittee at a time when neither one of his two clients had yet been called, and as I remember it, before the witness who did testify was called, Mr. Berecz, and again just now when he said that he had an objection to make and that he did not consider that his clients' rights were being protected. Also, in view of some part of Mr. Sporn's objection that was made a few moments ago to the effect that his riglits were being violated and that he has not had an opportimity to answer and prob- ably won't have an opportunity to answer certain accusations that have been made against him, I think that I should state on behalf of the committee, here in public, that all of the witnesses who have been subpenaed to appear here today and a number of other persons as w^el], who have not been subpenaed, have all been sent by tlie commit- tee letters under date of April 10, 1964, which gave them the oppor- tunity under House Rule XI, 26 (m), to appear here and to make any voluntary statement that they care to make, provided that they give notice to the committee in advance ; that, generally speaking, is what this letter said to those individuals, including Paul Sporn.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE BUFFALO, N.Y., AREA 1567
I would like to read at this time the letter that I have reference to which was sent to such individuals. I am quoting :
"Pursuant to House Rule XI, 26 (m), the Committee on Un-Amer- ican Activities has received certain testimony in executive session.
"In the course of this testimony, a person by the name of" — and the name of the witness was stated in the letter to each individual — "a resident of" — and the residence of the individual giving such testimony was given — "was identified as having been a member of the Communist Party." I am sorry, Mr. Chairman. I have made an error in the reading of this in supplying the blanks. I will go back to read what I have just read :
"In the course of this testimony, a person by the name of ,"
I am interrupting the reading of this letter to supply the blanks. In that blank was given tlie name of an individual who would be referred to later in this letter.
Resuming the reading of the letter : "a resident of ," and
there in that blank was given the residence of the person who would be referred to later in the letter which I am reading. Resuming the reading —
was identified as having been a member of tlie Communist Party.
A subcommittee of tlie Committee on Un-American Activities will meet at 9:00 a.m. on April 29, 1964. in the City of Bufealo, New York, in Room 702, Federal Court House, 69 Niagara Street.
At that time, if you so desire, you will be afforded an opportunity voluntarily to appear as a witness. At the same time, the subcommittee will receive and dispose of any request made by you to subpoena additional witnesses.
This is not a subpoena or summons requiring you to appear. However, if you desire to avail yourself of this opportunity, you should so advise the Direc- tor of the Committee not later than Friday, April 24, 1964. He may be reached at Room 226, Cannon House Office Building, Washington 2.5, D.C. ; telephone number : Capitol 4-3121, extension 3051.
Very truly yours,
Edwin E. Willis, Chairma?i.
There was a notation at the bottom that enclosed was a copy of the House Rule 26(g) and 26 (m). That concludes the reading of the form of letter, Mr. Chairman, which I understand, filled in, was di- rected to an individual named Paul Sporn.
Mr. Sporx. I have nothing to say to the committee in private. What I have to say will be said in public. If you give me a chance to say it in public.
Mr. Pool. Mr. Sporn, from now on wait until somebody asks you a question before you spontaneously make a statement like that.
Mr. HiTZ. Mr. Chairm.an, having the benefit of that remark, how- ever, I note that my reading of the form letter in no way states whether the opportmiity to voluntarily appear as a witness would be public or private.
Mr. GoLLOBTN. Mr. Chairman, since Mr. Hitz has concluded the letter, may I make a motion in connection to that ?
IMr. Pool. Talk to counsel first.
Mr. GoLLOBiN. I wish to make it directly to the committee, if I may, Mr. Pool. It is a public statement.
Mr. Pool. Come up here.
(Wliereupon, Counsel Gollobin and Counsel Hitz a])proached the bench for an off-the-record discussion.)
Mr. Hitz. On the record.
1568 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE BUFFALO, N.Y., AREA
Mr. Chairman, under the rules and procedures followed by this committee and along with other Houses — of both Houses of Congress, counsel are not permitted to make objections directly to the com- mittee. The witnesses are permitted to do so, and they may do so with and after consultation by counsel of their own choice. I sug- gest that the chairman state to Mr. Sporn, the witness, that if he cares to make any relevant and brief statement that is an objection to anything that is occurring in this courtroom at this time, that he do so.
Mr. GoLLOBiN. Mr. Chairman, at the outset of this hearing a mo- tion was made, and I asked for the same privilege.
Mr. Pool. Mr. Sporn, I so state to you the very words counsel has just used, and if you have objection, you make your objection. You have the right to consultation with your own counsel.
Mr. GoLLOBiN. May I have an objection for the record ?
Mr. Pool. You can confer with your client. You are not to talk to the committee.
Mr. GoLLOBiN. I wish to have my objection that the committee has permitted motions by counsel at the outset of this hearing, at the very beginning, and I consider it a denial of a fair hearing and a mockery.
Mr. Pool. If you keep on, you are going to hold yourself in con- tempt of Congress. Now, you sit down and be quiet.
Proceed with your questions.
Mr. HiTz. Mr. Chairman
Mr. Sporn. I have an objection to make. This is a further vio- lation of due process of law. A statement has been made about my name appearing as having been something or other, and I am not being given the right to directly confront the person who made such allegations. That is my objection, violation of the due process of law, another violation of the Constitution.
Mr. Pool. Your objection is overruled. Answer the questions put to you.
Mr. HiTZ. Mr. Sporn, will you please state your address ?
Mr. Sporn. May I remind the chairman of this committee that he said after I had been sworn in, he would allow me to state the reasons why I wanted to bring the tape recorder in here.
Mr. Pool. State your reasons.
Mr. Sporn. The reason I wanted this testimony recorded in full is that the editors of some newspapers have a habit of distorting the honest labors of their reporters. I would like now to cite an example, and I will give this as an exhibit to the reporter. There are two stories in the newspapers in this city
Mr. HiTZ. Excuse me, Mr. Sporn. I would like to interrupt you, and I am sorry I have to suggest to the chairman that this in no way is a relevant objection to the proceeding here as to what appears or does not appear in the public press.
Mr. Sporn. I think it is relevant to my purpose in bringing the tape recorder in and wanting to have a full tape of the hearing.
Mr. Pool. You have stated your objection. It is overruled. Go on.
Mr. Sporn. All right. There were two stories covering the same thing.
Mr. Pool. Ask the next question, Counsel, and proceed with the questions.
COMAIUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE BUFFALO, N.Y., AREA 1569
Mr. Hrrz. Mr. Sporn, have you stated your objection with reference to this tape recorder ?
Mr. Sporn. I am trying to state it now, that the testimony given here in this hearing is frequently distorted in the press. Now, you must admit that
Mr. HiTz. I must interrupt again. I asked you merely if you had stated your objection. It is my view that you are arguing and I in- vite the chairman again to rule, and I will proceed.
Mr. Sporn. I am merely trying to help the committee. I am help- ing the committee, and I think they could do me justice by allowing me to have a tape recorder.
Mr. Pool. You have your ruling, and your objection is overruled. Counsel, proceed with the next question.
Mr. HiTZ. Mr. Sporn, please give your address.
Mr. Sporn. I shall not state my home address. I shall give you my address at my place of work. The reason I will not state my home address is that I do not wish to be harassed by the mentality which supports this committee. I have here, for example, something or some things sent
Mr. JoHANSEN. I suggest that if it is satisfactory with the chairman that the witness state the address that he indicates he is going to with- out being argumentative, and that you proceed with the next question.
Mr. Sporn. I am not trying to be argumentative. I am trying to answer the question.
Mr. Pool. Answer the question and be responsive.
Mr. Sporn. I would like to read to you the kind of harassment that occurs from stating an address and the kind of people that support this committee.
Mr. Pool. Give your home address and that's what we want.
Mr. Sporn. I am not going to give you my home address.
Mr. Pool. I direct you to give your home address.
Mr. Sporn. I am not going to give my home address. I am going to give my address at my place of work, which is something that the committee has recognized many times before.
Mr. Pool. Give your business address.
Mr. Sporn. I would also like to submit this as an exhibit.
Mr. Pool. I am asking you the question. What is your business address ?
Mr. Sporn. My business address is State University of New York at Buffalo, Main Street.
Mr. Pool. Counsel, proceed.
Mr. HiTz. What is your home address ?
Mr. Sporn. I am not going to give you my home address because it would here open me to harassment. I would like to indicate to you the reasonableness of my position. May I ?
Mr. HiTz. Mr. Chairman, I suggest that he has made an objection here. I ask the Chair to rule upon the validity of the objection, and I reconunend to the Chair that he overrule the objection and require the answer of his home address, nevertheless.
Mr. Sporn. My home address has nothing to do with the pertinency of the legislative purpose, and I would like to avoid harassment, and I would like to indicate to you the kind of harassment I would open my- self to. I am sure you would like to know that.
1570 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE BUFFALO, N.Y., AREA
Mr. HiTZ. Mr. Chcairman, I am sure lie made his objection, namely, that it is not relevant to this inquiry that he give his home address. I would like to state for the record the relevancy of the record of his home address in order to identify the individual who is now in the witness chair and says his name is Paul Sporn. I think that his home address is relevant to this inquiry and is a pertinent question. I ask the chairman to require him to answer the question despite his objec- tion, and that he be advised that a failure and refusal to answer it may subject him to the penalties of contempt.
Mr. Pool. I overruled your objection and order you and direct you to answer the question that counsel has asked you, and I direct you to answer the question.
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Sporn". I shall state my address, but I shall hold the committee accountable for any harassment that occurs.
Mr. Pool. State your address.
Mr. Sporn. 442 Huntington Avenue, Buffalo, New York.
Mr. Pool. That is your home address ?
Mr. Sporn. That is my home address.
Mr. Pool. Proceed.
Mr. HiTz. Mr. Sporn, when and where were you born ?
Mr. Sporn. I was born in the city of New York. I don't see, again, what this has to do with the hearing here.
Mr. Pool. Just be responsive to the questions.
Mr. Sporn. I would like to understand why ; you have identified me already. You have identified me as to i)lace of domicile, and what more information do you want ?
Mr. Pool. This is for the purpose of complete identification. Pro- ceed with the next question. Counsel.
Mr. Sporn. I understand that.
Mr, HiTZ. Mr. Chairman, the pertinency and relevancy of this question is perfectly clear on the face of it. It is further identifica- tion of the individual with respect to his place of birth, his age as he now sits here, and of other activities concerning which we are going to ask him. The pertinency is beyond question. I ask the chairman to overrule his objection and to demand the answer, nevertheless.
Mr. Sporn. May I ask the committee a question ?
Mr. Pool. Just a minute. Counsel, state the question again.
Mr. HiTz. Wlien and where were you born ?
Mr. Pool. I direct you to answer the question.
Mr. Sporn. May I ask the committee what possible relevancy this has?
Mr. JoHANSEN. I ask the Chair to direct counsel to ask the next question.
Mr. Sporn. I am trying to answer the question. I would like a point clarified. Do you insist that you will not clarify a point for me ?
Mr. Pool. Counsel has clarified it.
Mr. Sporn. He merely said that it has been established, but I do not know in what way.
Mr. HiTz. Mr. Sporn, as counsel for the committee, I have indicated the relevancy and the pertinency of this question, which I am sure will stand up in the court. I ask the chairman again to overi'iile youi" objec-
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE BUFFALO, N.Y., AREA 1571
tion and to require your answer to the question, when and where were you born, under the pain and penalty of possible contempt.
Mr. Sporn. Since this may be
Mr. Pool. Just a minute. I overrule your objection to that question, and I direct you to answer the question.
Mr. SroRx. Before I answer the question, I usually like to have some clarity on it. I am an extremely busy person and I recognize that you are also.
Mr. Pool. Let the record show that he has refused to answer the question. Proceed with the next question, Counsel.
Mr. HiTZ. Next question, Mr. Sporn.
Mr. Sporn. I have not refused to answer the question. I am asking for clarity on it.
Mr. Pool. All right. I will give you one last chance to answer the question.
]\Ir. Sporn". Before you give me a last chance, may I have clarity on it?
Mr. Pool. I am not going to waste any more time on whether this is relevant.
Mr. Sporn. I don't want to waste time, and you men ought not to be wasting time because there are many important things that you have to do in Washington, D.C.
Mr. Pool. Answer the question, for the last time.
Mr. Sporn. I still have no clarity. May I have clarity, please?
Mr. Pool. Proceed. Just answer the question. Proceed with the next question, Counsel.
Mr. HiTZ. The next question.
Mr. Sporn. I would not refuse to answer the question. May I consult with counsel ? Can I consult v/ith counsel for one moment, please?
Mr. Pool. All right.
(Witness conferred wdth counsel.)
Mr. Sporn. Thank you.
Mr. HiTz. Will you furnish the committee with a resume of your educational background ? I ask you the question.
Mr. Sporn. I can't possibly see what relevancy that has to do with the subject of this hearing. I am educated enough to know this, that America has many, many problems, one of which is discrimination, and another of which is chronic unemployment. Buffalo, for example, at the present moment has some 40,000 people unemployed. These are the problems, it seems to me, which we should be interested in.
Mr. Pool. Proceed with the next question.
Mr. HiTz. Mr. Chairman, before proceeding with the next question, I would like to, with your permission, answer the objection of lack of relevancy of this question and then to ask the chairman to demand an answer.
Mr. Pool. All right.
Mr. HiTz. Mr. Sporn, I am now going to give a statement to you with reference to the relevancy and pertinency of the question having to do with your educational background. The identification that will be further obtained concerning you and your present and past activities from the educational background, that is the basis for this question as one of the relevant points, and it is important and, there- fore, pertinent to the inquiry that we are making of you here today.
1572 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE BUFFALO, N.Y., AREA
In addition to that — and more specifically — it is a well-known situa- tion in the operation of the Communist Party that there have been people who have been downgrading their capabilities and their possi- bilities, who have been hiding their educational background and at- tainments and have been put to work for the purposes of the Communist Party in fields other than in which a person has been particularly trained. That is a special pertinency over and above the further identification of you as an individual, and further light to be thrown upon the activities that we have received information about concerning which we will ask you in the form of questions.
Mr. Sporn. Your very last reason is the one that makes me most reluctant to state my educational background. You make it appear as if it is a shame to be a workingman.
Mr. HiTZ. I have stated what I think is a sufficient statement of relevancy and pertinency. I will ask the chairman to require the witness to answer the question despite his reason given.
Mr. Pool. I direct you to answer the question.
Mr. Sporn. I don't understand. Getting an education doesn't seem to me engaging in illegal activities.
Mr. Pool. Phrase your next question.
Mr. HiTz. Mr. Chairman, I suggest that the witness be advised it is apparent he has not answered the question ; that he has had an opportunity to answer the pending question; that not having done so, it is apparent that his failure is a refusal; and that the refusal is one that he must view in the light of possible penalties of contempt. I ask the chairman to so advise him.
Mr. Pool. I so advise you.
Mr. Sporn. I am absolutely willing to answer.
Mr. Pool. I so advise you and point out to you that you could pos- sibly be subject to contempt if you don't answer the questions. Now, if you do not care to answer the question, so state, and we will go on to the next question.
Mr. Sporn. I am a graduate of college.
Mr. HiTZ. Did you graduate from high school, Mr. Sporn ?
Mr. Sporn. I think the answer is self-evident.
Mr. HiTz. Mr. Chairman, he has not voiced a legal objection to the question. I ask that the question be answered. I request the chair- man to demand the answer under the pain and penalty of contempt.
Mr. Sporn". Really, with some serious problems, when an answer is self-evident, do we have to go through this ?
Mr. Pool. Mr. Marshal, if he keeps on making statements without trying to be responsive to the question, we will have to take action.
Proceed with the next question.
Mr. Hrrz. Mr. Sporn, I am advising the chairman to state to you that your failure to answer the question, whether or not you have graduated from high school, is a refusal which is punishable by con- tempt, and that he demand the answer.
Mr. Pool. I so state to you, and I demand the answer and direct you to answer.
Mr. Sporn. I am sorry. I did not hear you.
Mr. Hrrz. Mr. Sporn, I am asking the chairman to advise you that your failure to answer the question as to whether or not you are a graduate of high school is a failure which is a refusal punishable by
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE BUFFALO, N.Y., AREA 1573
contempt proceedings, and that he demand the answer of you never- theless.
Mr. Pool. I direct you to answer the question.
Mr. Sporn. In the State of New York, one is required to have a high school diploma in order to enter some of the colleges in this State. I have a high school diploma. I have graduated from high school.
Mr. HiTz. When did yon graduate from high school, Mr. Sporn?
Mr. Sporn". Now, what relevancy does that have, may I ask ? This happened quite a long time ago.
Mr. Pool. I direct you to answer the question.
Mr. Sporn. It is like the ancient history recited before.
Mr. Pool. I direct you, for the last time, to answer the question.
Mr. Sporn. In 1939, at the start of the Second World War.
Mr. HiTZ. Wlien did you graduate from college, Mr. Sporn ?
Mr. Sporn. My education was interrupted because I had to serve in the United States Air Force in an anti-Fascist war, where I learned
Mr. Pool. Answer the question.
Mr. Sporn. I am trying to answer the question.
Mr. JoHANSEN. No, you are not. I suggest the witness answer the question or we proceed to the next one.
Mr. Pool. I direct you to answer the question.
Mr. Sporn. I am trying to give you an answer which will fill in on my background and identify what I believe in.
Mr. Pool. Your statement is not responsive to the question. All you have to do is answer the question, and I direct you to answer the question for the last time.
Mr. Sporn. Would you restate the question ?
Mr. HiTZ. When were you graduated from college ?
Mr. Sporn. I returned to school after the end of the war against fascism and nazism in 1949.
Mr. Pool. Your answer is not responsive.
Mr. Sporn. I am about to give a date.
Mr. Pool. Answer the question. I direct you to answer the question.
Mr. Sporn. To the best of my knowledge, in 1951.
Mr. HiTz. What degree did you receive upon graduation ?
Mr. Sporn. Again, may I protest ? It's just that I lack clarity on this. I don't see what relevancy this has to many of the problems in America and un-American problems that we might be solving, if we were somewhere else.
Mr. Pool. Counsel, explain the relevancy of the question.
Mr. HiTz. Mr. Chairman, I would like to suggest that this matter of the degree upon graduation from college is further identification. It has to do with the specific pertinency that I have mentioned before, having to do with activities of the sort that I have outlined. It is unquestionably pertinent, and I ask the chairman to require the an- swer of the degree received upon graduation.
Mr. Pool. I so direct you.
Mr. Sporn. I am the Paul Sporn with the bachelor of arts degree.
Mr. HiTz. From what college or university did you receive that degree in that year ?
Mr. Sporn. New York University.
Mr. HiTz. Did you graduate with honors cum laude, Mr. Sporn?
Mr. Sporn. You are now asking me to violate a fundamental prin- ciple of my life, which is never to boast about myself.
1574 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE BUFFALO, N.Y., AREA
Mr. Pool. Be responsive to the question.
Mr. HiTz. Mr. Chairman, I suggest that the Chair advise the wit- ness that if he does not answer this question, which I believe to be pertinent, that he does so at the peril of risk of contempt.
Mr. Pool. I so advise the witness.
Mr. Sporn. May I ask counsel what the relevancy is ?
Mr. Pool. Don't interrupt.
Mr. Sporn. I'm sorry.
Mr. Pool. I so advise you, as counsel has stated, and I direct you now to answer the question.
Mr. Sporn. May I first have clarification on the relevancy of that question to these hearings ?
Mr. HiTZ. The question as to whether or not you graduated with honors is one that is relevant and pertinent to this inquiry for the same reasons that I have stated with regard to the fact of graduation and the degree with which you have graduated. It needs no further elucidation. I ask the Chair to demand the answer.
Mr. Pool. I so direct you to answer the question.
Mr. Sporn. I am that Paul Sporn who has a bachelor of arts degree and graduated from NYU in 1951 with honors.
Mr. Pool. Proceed to the next question.
Mr. HiTZ. Mr. Sporn, where have you been employed since your graduation from college in 1951, giving the places of employment from that time to the present ?
Mr. Sporn. I have worked all of my life. I worked every day ex- cept, of course, today. I am not doing the job I should be doing — teaching — because I have been commanded to come down here. The work that I have done has taught me a great deal about the economic inadequacies and injustices which exist in American industry.
[Applause and disorder in the audience.]
Mr. Pool. Your answer is not responsive. I direct you to answer the question.
Mr. Sporn. In what way do the places where I have worked con- nect with the investigation into un-American activities ?
Mr. Pool. I am directing you to answer the question, for the last time.
Mr. HiTZ, Mr. Chairman, I would like to make some comment as to his objection, because it has to do with the relevancy of the question. (Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. HiTz. Mr. Chairman, I note that the counsel and witness have ceased their conference. I ask that the question that is pending be demanded of answer by the chairman and that it be stated to him that he may refuse only under the penalties of contempt.
Mr. Pool. I so state to the witness and direct him to answer the question.
Mr. Sporn. I am going to answer the question in the only way I know how at the moment, if you will allow me. Now, what I would like to laiow is, you had extensive investigation facilities, I under- stand.
Mr. Pool. This is not responsive. For the last time, I ask you and direct you to answer the question.
Mr. Sporn. The thing I am trying to get at, it seems that you have gone to a sreat deal of exDense and could have scotten this information.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE BUFFALO, N.Y., AREA 1575
Mr. Pool. Hold it up. Let the record show he did not respond to the question.
Mr. Sporn. I am trying to answer the question.
Mr. Pool. Well answer the question right now.
Mr. Sporn. Well, are you so insisting that I answer it your way? Will you please allow me to answer it in the way I can ?
Mr. Pool. I direct you for the last time to answer the question.
Mr. Sporn. May I answer the question the way I can ? You cannot tell me how to answer the question. You may command me to come down here, but I am trying to answer the question.
Mr. Pool. Counsel, proceed with the next question.
Mr. HiTz. Mr. Sporn, were you employed by the Eighth Street Book Shop or an organization of a similar name in the period of approxi- mately 1949 to 1952 ?
Mr. Sporn. Are you going to inquire now into the kind of books that were sold in that bookshop as un-American ?
Mr. Pool. That is not responsive to the question, so answer the ques- tion. I direct you to answer the question.
Mr. Sporn. I would like to know what the counsel has in mind.
Mr. HiTZ. Mr. Chairman, the inquiry has to do with a possible place of employment after graduation. It has further to do w^ith the matters that I have stated before which are clearly pertinent to the inquiry here, having to do with the individual identity, with the indicated background of the individual, with the individual's activities in and about the Communist Party. The pertinency is apparent. I ask the chairman to again overrule the reason for the refusal to answer and demand that the question be answered.
Mr. Pool. I so overrule the reason for not answering and direct you to answer.
Mr. Sporn. Did counsel say after graduation ?
Mr. HiTZ. My question was, after graduation, which is '51 accord- ing to your testimony.
Mr. Sporn. To the best of my knowledge, yes, I did for a short time after graduation work in the Eight Street Book Shop selling books.
Mr. Pool. The committee will stand in recess for 10 minutes.
(A short recess was taken.)
Mr. Pool. Come to order.
Counsel, proceed to the next question.
Mr. HiTZ. Mr. Sporn, on or about October 9, 1953, did you make an application for employment with the American Optical Company?
Mr. Sporn. (No response.)
(Witness conferred with counsel) .
Mr. HiTz. Mr. Chairman, I ask that you require him to answer the question by demand.
Mr. Sporn. Mr. Chairman, I am thinking. I think I have a right to think about these things, don't I? Now, why am I being forced to immediately answer the question like that? Can I assemble my thoughts, please ?
Mr. Pool. You are directed to answer the question.
Mr. Sporn. Well, I am thinking about it at the moment. As I recall, on or about — what was the date ?
Mr. HiTZ. October 9, 1953.
36-414—64 5
1576 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE BUFFALO, N.Y., AREA
Mr. Sporn. It was a rather difficult time to get employment, as I recall. It seems to me it would be better if we were trying to solve that problem because it is still difficult times to get employment, even now.
Mr. HiTz. Mr. Chairman, he is not answering the question.
Mr. Pool. I will direct you to answer the question.
Mr. Sporn. Would you repeat the question, please ?
Mr. HiTZ. On or about October 9, 1953, did you make application for employment with the American Optical Comi)any ?
Mr. Sporn. Excuse me, I am trying to refresh my memory on the date. I am not sure about the date.
Mr. HiTz. Mr. Sporn, I said, "on or about" ?
Mr. Sporn. On or about — yes, I believe so.
Mr. Pool. Proceed.
Mr. HiTz. Mr. Sporn, in that application for employment with that company, is it not a fact that in those spaces requesting information having to do with your schooling and education, that you listed grade school as "public schools," the high school as "Townsend Harris High" School, New York, years completed, "1939," with reference to the high school, and that you left blank, vocational or trade school, business or technical school, college or university, and others ; that you left those blank?
Mr. Sporn. You had this information all along; why did you ask me those questions before ?
Mr. HiTz. I ask that the chairman direct the witness to answer the question.
Mr. Pool. You are directed to answer the question.
Mr. Sporn. I thought I answered the question before, that I grad- uated from high school in 1939.
Mr. Pool. That was not the question.
Mr. HiTz. That is not responsive to the question. Mr. Sporn, the question was, Did you not leave blank those spaces having to do with all educational attainments after high school on this application to the American Optical Company ?
(Witness conferred with counsel) .
Mr. Sporn. Will you restate the question, please ?
Mr. HiTz (to reporter) . Will you read the question.
(The reporter read the pending question.)
Mr. Sporn. To the best of my knowledge, I was free to leave those spaces ; I had the choice. I was free to leave those spaces blank.
Mr. JoHANSEN. I suggest, Mr. Chairman, that this answer is not responsive.
Mr. Sporn. Why isn't the answer responsive, Mr. Johansen?
Mr. HiTZ. Mr. Chairman, I will interject an explanation and repeat the question. The question was, Mr. Sporn, whether or not you did, in fact, leave blank those spaces calling for attainments in education beyond high school, not the reason for it. Is it not a fact that that is what you did ?
Mr. Sporn. May I see the application so that I can have the same information that you already have ?
Mr. HiTZ. I will show you a copy of "Sporn Exhibit No. 1."
(Document handed to witness.)
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE BUFFALO, N.Y., AREA 1577
Mr. Sporn. Now that I see the copy you have looked at ; yes, I did leave those spaces blank. You had that information all along, of course, which indicates that the purpose is not really to get information.
Mr. Pool. Answer the question.
Mr. HiTZ. Mr. Sporn, did you not reply under question 18, which is, "What position do you prefer?", "Machine Operator"? I will show you again Exhibit No. 1, Mr. Sporn.
Mr. Sporn. Well, that way we will both have the same information, at any rate. Now, would you repeat that question ?
Mr. HiTZ. Did you not, under the question calling for such an answer, say that your preference was for machine operator ?
Mr. Sporn". Is there any shame in being a machine operator?
Mr. HiTz. The answer is not responsive. The objection is not rele- vant. It needs no reply. I request the chainnan to demand an answer.
Mr. Sporn". Before, you did make it somid as if it was a shameful thing to work as a machine operator or any other job in the plant.
Mr. Pool. I direct you to answer the question.
Mr. Sporn. Of course, I don't have the application in front of me, but I do think it said exactly what Mr. Hitz read himself on the piece of paper.
(Document marked "Sporn Exhibit No. 1" and retained in com- mittee files.)
Mr. Hitz. Mr. Sporn, were you employed as a result of your appli- cation by American Optical Company for the period of approxi- mately October 19, 1953, to approximately April 9, 1954 ?
Mr. Sporn. I wonder if the committee is aware that in 1954 there was a great deal of unemployment in Buffalo, and I was laid off from that plant in 1954?
Mr. Hitz. That is not responsive.
Mr. Sporn. I am trying to give you the terminal date of that em- ployment. Yes, I was employed, to the best of my knowledge. I don't have the application in front of me, but I w^as employed during those dates.
Mr. Pool, Proceed with the next question.
Mr. Hitz. What employment, Mr. Sporn, did you have with the Optical Company during approximately that period ?
Mr. Sporn. Didn't you just ask me that question ? • Mr. Hitz. I ask you now, AVhat was your employment? My previous question was. What was your application for employment ?
Mr. Sporn. May I ask a question ?
Mr. Pool. Answer the question. You are not asking the questions here today.
Mr. Sporn. That is one of the difficulties. You know, in a class- room where I teach, we have a trade of questions and answers and we get lots more infonnation than we seem to be getting today, and no- body ever asks questions about information they already have. The reason, it seems to me, why the committee is seeking this information, is for some other purpose. You are not here for information. You are here for another purpose. That is what you are here for.
Mr. Pool. Counsel, ask the next question.
Mr. Hitz. I ask that the chairman demand the answer.
Mr. Pool. I direct you to answer the question.
1578 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE BUFFALO, N.Y., AREA
Mr. Sporn. Weren't your investigators able to get that infor- mation ?
Mr. Pool. Next question. Let the record show he refuses to answer the question. Next question.
Mr. Sporn. I haven't yet refused to answer the question. Mr. Pool. Well, answer the question right now. (Witness conferred with counsel) . Mr. Sporn. I was employed as a machine operator.
Mr. Pool. Next question, Counsel.
Mr. Sporn. I am reluctant to answer the question because they make the investigators look rather foolish.
Mr. Pool. Wait until he asks you a question.
Mr. HiTz. Mr. Sporn, on a date not stated in your application, did you not apply for employment with the Twin Coach Company of Buffalo, N.Y.
Mr. Sporn. I know what's going to happen; you are going to go through all these applications. I was laid off many, many times during that period because American industry could not provide me with a regular job. "On a date not stated," you say — what is the question ?
Mr. HiTz. There is no question pending at this time. You did not permit me to finish it.
Mr. Sporn. I am sorry. Go ahead.
Mr. HiTz. In which application you stated no educational attain- ment beyond that of "Harris High School," which, without further identification, resulted in your employment by Twin Coach Company ?
Mr. Sporn. I am a bit confused. Is it un-American not to state education or is it un-American to go to work in a plant? Now, you are asking me to state what ?
Mr. Pool. Just a minute.
Mr. Sporn. I am trying to find out what the question and the per- tinency of it is ; that is why I asked the question.
Mr. Pool. State the question.
Mr. Sporn. Is it un-American not to list one's education ?
Mr, Pool. State the question.
Mr. Sporn. I would like to know the pertinency of it.
Mr. Hnz. I think the chairman is addressing me. I did not un- derstand whether the Chair asked me to state the next question or the previous question.
Mr. Pool. If he hasn't answered the previous question, that will be the one to ask. Do you insist upon the answer to the previous question ?
Mr. HiTz. Mr. Sporn has indicated he doesn't understand the ques- tion. I will repeat the question to him.
Mr. Sporn. May I ask another question of Mr. Hitz, counsel ?
Mr. Pool. No. Just answer the questions that Mr. Hitz puts to you.
Mr. Sporn. Well, I would like to, but the reason I kept raising the point
Mr. Pool. You are going to have to listen to the questions and an- swer them, and that is all we have you here for.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE BUFFALO, N.Y., AREA 1579
Mr. Sporn. Aren't you here to have me give you some information ?
Mr. Pool. We are here to ask you questions that you are to respond to.
Mr. Sporn. I am trying to explain why I am having difficulty with the pertinency. I would like to ask a question.
Mr. Pool. We are not here to have you lecture to us.
Mr. Sporn. I am not trying to lecture to you. I am trying
Mr. JoHANSEN. Counsel stated he would restate the question, and I suggest he proceed to do it.
Mr. HiTz. Mr. Sporn, my question of you is : On a date not desig- nated on the application, did you not make application for employ- ment with the Twin Coach Company, subsequent some time to your employment with American Optical Company, in which application, that is, the Twin Coach application, you failed to state any educa- tional attainment after Harris High School, 1939? Please answer that question.
Mr. Sporn. Wliat is the pertinency of that question as to this hearing ?
Mr. HiTZ. The pertinency of that question is the same as to the other related questions which I have given to you before, and ex- pressly the same as that to the American Optical Company question : that it has to do with your educational attainments, your use, or lack of use, of those attainments, further identification of you, illumina- tive of your activities in the Communist Party concerning which we have received today sworn testimony.
Mr. Sporn. Since this has to do with the use of my attainments, I would say I have used my attainments all along.
Mr. Pool. I direct you to answer the question.
Mr. HiTz. jMy question had to do with whether or not you did leave blank educational attainments after high school. I am not repeating the question ; I am indicating what the question dealt with, and I ask you to answer the question.
Mr. Sporn. May I see the application ?
Mr. HiTz. You may, and this is Sporn Exhibit No. 2 that I am handing to you.
Mr. Sporn. You ask me if this application is blank in what spots?
Mr. HiTz. My question, not repeated, but related to those state- ments of educational attainments after high school. Are those blanks calling for such information, are they not left blank on the appli- cation ?
Mr. Sporn. Reading from the same application which you had before you a few moments ago, yes, that space is left blank.
Mr. HiTZ. All spaces beyond high school; is that not correct?
Mr. Sporn. Yes, all spaces beyond high school, rather legibly so
1580 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE BUFFALO, N.Y., AREA
(Document marked "Sporn Exhibit No. 2" follows:)
Sporn Exhibit No. 2
TWIN INDUSl"Ki£S CCvPjn.:y;-!_ rO^J-lEr^iy TWIN COACH COMPANY
AIRCRAFT • MISSILES VEHICLE COMPONENTS
BUFFALO 25, N. Y.
May 17, 1962
Mr. Frank S. Tavenner, Jr.
Director
Conunittee on Un-American Activities
Mouse of Representatives
Congress of the United States
Washington D. C.
Dear Mr. Tavenner:
This is to acknowledge receipt of your letter of May 14, 1962 regarding our former employee, Paul Sporn.
In accordance with your request, we are enclosing herewith a copy of his employment application.
Very truly yours,
TWIN INDUSTRIES CORPORATION Aerospace Division
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L. R. Peard
Industrial Relations Manager
LRPrRM End.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE BUFFALO, N.Y., AREA 1581
Sporn Exhibit No. 2 — Continued
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1582 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE BUFFALO, N.Y., AREA
Sporn Exhibit No. 2 — Continued
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COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE BUFFALO, N.Y., AREA 1583
Mr. HiTZ. Mr. Sporn, did you receive employment with Twin Coach Company?
Mr. Sporn. May I see that application again, please?
Mr. HiTz. Yes,
Mr. Sporn. I notice on the letter sent to that company, that the industrial relations manager — I am answering the question, I am.
Mr. Pool. You are not answering it; it's not responsive.
Mr. Sporn [reading]. "This is to acknowledge receipt of your letter of May 14, 19C2 regarding our former employee, Paul Sporn." They considered me an employee of their plant. Yes, I was employed by them.
Mr. HiTz. Mr. Sporn, did you not sign the following statement on the application for employment for Twin Coach, which I am going to read to you ? "I am not a member of the Communist Party or any organization recommending the overthrow of the United States Gov- ernment by force." My question is, Did you not sign your name below that statement? I w^ill hand you the same exhibit so that you may answer the question.
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Sporn. What is the purpose of this question? I can't quite make out the purpose of this question now.
Mr. HiTz. Will you please hand me back the exhibit ?
Mr. Sporn. Yes.
Mr. HiTz. Mr. Sporn, the question that I asked had to do with whether or not you signed a statement having to do with Communist Party membership or membership in an organization recommending the overthrow of the United States Government by force in your application for employment with the Twin Coach Company, and it deals with whether or not you were then a member of the Communist Party.
The Supreme Court has determined that the questions asked of Mr. Barenblatt as to whether — when before the committee — he was a member of the Communist Party, and another question, whether he ever was a member of the Communist Party, were pertinent and relevant beyond any question of arginnent before this committee, and Mr. Barenblatt's conviction for contempt was upheld in an opinion so holding in the Supreme Court. That is the relevancy and pertinency of this question, and that is the problem with which you are faced if you don't answer it.
Mr. Sporn. What year was that decision made?
Mr. HiTz. I have stated the relevancy and the law on which it is based. I ask the chairman of the commitcee to require the answer to the question.
Mr. Pool. I direct the witness to answer the question.
Mr. Sporn. Since this particular question violates the first amend- ment by inquiring into one's right to peaceably assemble, and so forth and so on, I refuse to answer the question on those constitutional grounds. I am sure you would not want me to violate the Constitution.
Mr. Pool. Just a moment. Do you have a further statement to make?
Mr. Sporn. Yes, of course I do.
Mr. Pool. State it.
1584 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE BUFFALO, N.Y., AREA
Mr. Sporn. I also refuse to answer on the grounds of the sixth amendment which gives me the right, if I am charged with a crime, to a speedy trial and to confront my accuser with cross-examination, which you are denying me.
Mr. Pool. Do you have any further objections?
Mr. Spoen. I also refuse to answer on the grounds of the 14th amendment, because this hearing is a violation of the due process law clause of that amendment.
Mr. Pool. Anything further?
Mr. Sporn. I also refuse to answer on the grounds of this amend- ment, the fifth amendment :
No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when, in actual service in time of war or public danger ; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb ; nor shall be compelled in any Criminal Case to be a witness against himself ; nor be deprived of life, liberty, or prop- erty, without due process of law ; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.
Mr. Pool. Next question.
Mr. Sporn. I would like to finish.
Mr. Pool. Next question.
Mr. HiTz. Mr. Chairman, may we go off the record?
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. Pool. On the record.
In other words, you are also pleading the fifth amendment?
Mr. Sporn. I am pleading all the amendments that I have cited.
Mr. Pool. Do you specifically plead the fifth amendment?
Mr. Sporn. I am pleading them all, and I guess you might have recognized that amendment that I just read to you, which in this book is article V of the Bill of Rights.
Mr. Pool. All right.
Mr. HiTz. Mr. Sporn, do you contend that the answer to that ques- tion, among other things, might tend to incriminate you?
Mr. Sporn. I have answered that question already. I refuse to answer on all the grounds that I stated.
Mr. Pool. Proceed, Counsel.
Mr. PIiTz. Mr. Sporn, on approximately October 5, 1954, did you make application for employment with the American- Standard Com- pany,^ or a name to that effect, in which application you stated that you had theretofore w^orked for the American Optical Company; thereafter, that is after the American Optical Company employment, that you worked for the Twin Coach Company, and in this application did you not fail to list any educational attainments beyond those of the Harris High School ? I will show you what will become Sporn Exhibit No. 3, and ask you to answer the question.
Mr. Sporn. It seems to me that you have asked about four questions at once, and although I graduated with honors, I really don't have the ability to follow all four questions at one time. Would you like to ask one question ?
Mr. HiTz. I would like you to answer that question.
Mr. Sporn. Will you restate it ; it sounded like four to me.
^ American Radiator & Standard Sanitary Corporation.
COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE BUFFALO, N.Y., AREA 1585
Mr. HiTz. Please hand the exhibit back. On the application that is the subject matter of the last question, did you not leave blank those spaces calling for your educational attainments beyond those of high school in which you stated Harris High School ?
Mr. Sporn. In looking at the application which the counsel just looked at, I see that the spaces after high school are left blank. May I suggest that the committee stop wasting taxpayers' money and give me all those applications you have there, and I will run through them for you very quickly.
(Document marked "Sporn Exhibit No. 3" and retained in commit- tee files.)
Mr. Pool. Be responsive.
Mr. Sporn". Why waste taxpayers' money? You just can't come here and hold session all day long and waste taxpayers' money. There are a lot of things we can do more worthwhile than sitting here.
Mr. Pool. Next question.
Mr. PIiTz. Mr Sporn, the next question is — and I am going back to the application for Twin Coach employment — and I will ask you : Is it not a fact that in that application you sought employment by stating that you desired employment as a riveter ? I will hand you your ap- plication, which has been identified here to you as Sporn Exhibit No. 2, for identification, and you may answer that question.
Mr. Sporist. Would you restate that question, please ?
]Mr. HiTz. I am asking you if you did not apply for the position of riveter ?
Mr. Sporn. Yes, I did. It says so. It's not quite clear ; the "r" on the word "riveter" is a little blurred.
Mr. HiTZ. Do you dispute the fact ?
Mr. Sporn. No ; I said "Yes." The word is not very clear.
Mr. HiTz. Did you receive employment with Twin Coach, as a result of this application or otherwise, and work as a riveter for them ?
Mr. Sporn. May I see Sporn Exhibit No. 4, is it? May I see it, please ?
Mr. HiTz. Mr. Sporn, I am asking you whether you did, in fact, work for Twin Coach after having had or having made the application ?
Mr. Sporn. May I see the exhibit ?
]Mr. HiTz. I will show you again Exhibit No. 2, which is the Twin Coach application.
Mr. Sporn. Oh, Exhibit No. 2 ; I'm sorry. I got the number wrong. I think you asked me that question before and I answered it.
Mr. HiTz. I asked you now. I did not ask you before, I do not think. I ask you now whether you actually worked as a riveter for Twin Coach?
Mr. Sporn. Isn't this the letter I read to you ? I mentioned the in- dustrial relations manager?
Mr. HiTZ. I'm sorry, sir. I am asking the question again.
Mr. Sporn. I believe I answered it before. Can we have the stenog- rai)her go back over the record to see if I did ?
Mr. HiTz. Mr. Chairman, I think he should answer the question, if it was asked before.
a\Ir. Sporn. I think I did answer it before and I want to make sure that I don't answer it differently. I would like the stenographer to read through that, please. It's getting very difficult with all these exhibits to remember which is which.
1586 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE BUFFALO, N.Y., AREA
Mr. HiTZ. Without reference to tlie exhibits or your application, I am asking you, Did you work as a riveter for Twin Coach ? It calls for a factual answer based upon your recollection.
Mr. Sporn. I know it does. I am asking the stenographer to see if I answered that question before.
Mr. JoHANSEN. Mr. Chairman, 1 ask the Chair to direct the witness to answer the question. He can answer it from his recollection and he is well aware he can.
Mr. Pool. That is correct, and I direct you to answer the question.
Mr. Sporn. Yes, I did.
Mr. HiTZ. Mr. Sporn, did the Twin Coach Company, concerning which I have asked you a number of questions including the last ques- tion, have defense contracts at the time you applied for employment with them ?
Mr. Sporn. Are you referring to war contracts?
Mr. HiTz. I am referring to defense contracts with the United States Government.
Mr. Sporn. I really can't answer that question, because I did not work in the front office at that time and did not let contracts for the company. I worked as a riveter.
Mr, Pool. State the next question, Counsel.
Mr. HiTz. Mr. Sporn, did you receive employment with the Ameri- can-Standard, or a similarly named company, in Buffalo as a result of your application to which we have made reference?
Mr. Sporn. May I see the application to which you are referring?
Mr. HiTz. I am asking you to call upon your recollection, whether or not you worked for American-Standard.
Mr. Sporn. Well, American-Standard. So many companies are named American, I would like to see the application so that I can see which company you are referring to.
Mr. HiTz. I am showing you the application for employment with American-Standard.
Mr. Sporn. And the question you are asking?
Mr. HiTz. "Wliether you secured employment with them?
Mr. Sporn. Yes.
Mr. PIiTz. Will you please return the exhibit ?
Mr. Sporn. I have no desire to keep it.
Mr. HiRTz. Wliat work did you do for American-Standard?
Mr. Sporn. It was very hard work.
Mr. HiTz. What type of work did you do for American-Standard, Mr. Sporn ?
Mr. Sporn. May I have that application again ? It might refresh my memory.
Mr. HiTZ. I am asking for your recollection as to what type of work you did.
Mr. Sporn. As nearly as I can recollect, I worked as a cutter there.
Mr. HiTz. A cutter?
Mr. Sporn. I think that was the title of it.
Mr. HiTz. Mr. Sporn, I am about to ask you a question. Do you care to confer any longer ?
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